quarantine tank: fish die in it

skrivan · Aug 15, 2015

So, I'm pretty new to this but I do have a 200 g reef going with a 75 sump/fuge. That is going well with many zoas, goni's, acro's etc. The fish I have in there are generally doing well: purple tang, clown, chromis, swallowtail angel. Not very many fish. When I add fish I put them in a QT for 3 weeks. The last 3 times however, I've not been able to keep a single fish alive for the full 3 weeks. I've had powder blue die, powder brown die, and a second powder blue die. I get these fish from a pretty nice LFS. The QT is a 20 gallon and has some live rock that was at one time in my DT. It's been operating for 4 months or so with various fish in and out of it. I change 25% of the water every other day and the parameters are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrate and 0 nitrite. I am running a HOT Magnum canister filter which creates plenty of good flow and I have an airstone going thru a small bag of carbon. Salinity is 1.024.
This last PBT only lasted a week and I cannot figure out why, however I will ask these questions and give a bit more specific info to the masters on here hoping I can get this figured out so I don't kill anything else:
1. is the 20 gallon big enough? At LFS they keep the fish in maybe 10 to 15 g. Should I use a long tank rather than the 'normal' 20?
2. is the live rock possibly not enough 'hiding' even though the fish is basically alone?
3. I have an emerald crab in there---I cant imagine he is dong anything bad though----but possible? I see no marks on the dead PBT.
4. the PBT looks super clean and always has. No white marks or spots. It was seemingly very energetic----swimming and eating quite well. Then yesterday, just dead with no warning signs. I fed it frozen brine shrimp with garlic drops after I feed the DT. I suppose it is possible that he wasn't eating enough (more like I wasn't feeding enough) but there was always food leftover in the QT which I assumed was being taken care of by the crab. The ammonia level is never over 0 and I do check it every other day. I did not give any seaweed to him but the others I had were getting this.
5. I don't know what else to offer. It just seems I cant keep these Powder blues or browns alive and it is very frustrating to me and more so to these awesome fish.
6. Am I too much of a rookie to keep these guys?

thanks for any advice here....joe

twilliard · Aug 15, 2015

Do you run hypo for your QT?

skrivan · Aug 15, 2015

do you mean hyposalinity? It's generally at 1.024. I did see it up at 1.026 though, but for less than a day.

Cleo642 · Aug 15, 2015

Here is some links that can help.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/

skrivan · Aug 15, 2015

thanks, cleo, but for some reason that link isn't opening for me.

Cleo642 · Aug 15, 2015

Let me try again
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

twilliard · Aug 15, 2015

When you get a fish in take a look at the salinity.
Typically its a LOT lower than what you are used to.

skrivan · Aug 15, 2015

thanks Cleo---that one works.

Twillard: I will do that from now on for sure. Are you suggesting that my mistake was too high salinity change too fast? Would it take a week for this to do the fish in? That would make sense, I suppose, that the PBT's just want a lower salinity and my water is too "hot". That makes me sad for sure especially since it would be obviously preventable.

Amoo · Aug 15, 2015

I'm thinking after a week your fish would have been fine from any salinity change and that's more then likely not the culprit here.

The Powders themselves are very difficult fish to get through QT and as good as you LFS might be you might try a different source to see if you have any better luck.

skrivan · Aug 15, 2015

thanks for the reply Amoo.
3 different sources for the 3 fish......
I have not tried "Liveaquaria' yet though, for fish. Just corrals. The 'airshipping' makes me nervous on that, but of course the LFS gets them that way.

hybridazn · Aug 15, 2015

A proper qt tank should be bare bones. No rock, no inverts. It sounds like your qt tank is another "mini reef" observation tank than a proper qt. All you need is pvc fittings or even some aquarium decorations to provide hiding spots. If you ever needed to dose medicine in the qt your rock would absorb most of it and you would need to dose a lot more than needed to maintain the levels needed to treat. It also makes testing tough for those medications as well.

Your salinity is fine, I wouldn't mess with it at all. Hyposalinity is a way to treat ich by dropping the salinity to very low levels. Between 1.008-1.009 to be exact. You can also drop the salinity very fast and be fine. Its raising it that needs to be slow.

skrivan · Aug 15, 2015

thanks. I guess I will just clean it out completely and re-start it. Ill put the crab in the fuge or give it to LFS. I just don't trust those things and wish I could get the Sally Lightfoot out of my DT but it just wont co-operate with my trapping methods, so far.

buzzword · Aug 15, 2015

I would recommend an Ammonia badge. I hate the tests.

twilliard · Aug 15, 2015

hybridazn said:
A proper qt tank should be bare bones. No rock, no inverts. It sounds like your qt tank is another "mini reef" observation tank than a proper qt. All you need is pvc fittings or even some aquarium decorations to provide hiding spots. If you ever needed to dose medicine in the qt your rock would absorb most of it and you would need to dose a lot more than needed to maintain the levels needed to treat. It also makes testing tough for those medications as well.

Your salinity is fine, I wouldn't mess with it at all. Hyposalinity is a way to treat ich by dropping the salinity to very low levels. Between 1.008-1.009 to be exact. You can also drop the salinity very fast and be fine. Its raising it that needs to be slow.

Ok another one of these "I disagree with your advice" posts.
You forgot to ask him "how long do you acclimate before QT"
my fish come in at 1.018 and my DT is 1.025 my QT is 1.018
If his QT higher than what the fish came in with without proper acclamation the poor fish (already stressed) will get burnt gills

hybridazn · Aug 15, 2015

twilliard said:
Ok another one of these "I disagree with your advice" posts.
You forgot to ask him "how long do you acclimate before QT"
my fish come in at 1.018 and my DT is 1.025 my QT is 1.018
If his QT higher than what the fish came in with without proper acclamation the poor fish (already stressed) will get burnt gills

. I saw your post on salinity and asked about hypo, thats all. And I agree with you that if the dish wasn't acclimated properly that it will suffer. But according to the op first post the fish lasted almost a month so I dont think that would nessesarily be the problem.

rayn · Aug 15, 2015

One thing I use in my QT is seachem stability. It helps jump start bacteria each time a fish is added and helps with new tank syndrome. Now I understand your QT isn't "new" but I swear by it.

One thing to think of, if say your first PBT had a disease and you didn't see it it is in the water now. After each QT clean the tank, dry, then restart. I do this whether the fish moves to my display or not.

skrivan · Aug 15, 2015

thanks all! Hybrid: I had to edit my OP because this last PBT lasted only a week, not a month, which was my bad when I wrote the first post. I think it is the high salinity. I have the fish and will look at his gills when I get a chance (but not really sure if ill know anything from that). Im going to LFS and check his salinity level in the tank that used to have the PBT.

skrivan · Aug 22, 2015

i checked the water at LFS and it was only 1.010 salinity. My QT was 1.024. I did a drip acclimation for an hour before putting him into the QT but 1 week later: dead fish. Since then, I have restarted the QT from scratch and have kept a couple of chromis in it for a week or so. I'd got another PBT. I set up the QT to match the salinity of the LFS water, 1.010. Ill slowly raise it by changing a quart of water daily with water out of my DT. The QT is 20 gallons. I pulled everything out of it, too---no live rock or inverts. I put in a small powerhead, too, near the top and I have a small airstone to add some more O2. Not sure what else I can do....I hope this works.

Humblefish · Aug 22, 2015

Most SW livestock can't go from 1.010 to 1.024, you'd have to drip acclimate for days. That large of a swing in SG sends fish into osmotic shock and many times they don't recover. Fish handle going down in salinity much easier than going up.

Your best bet is to do what you just did... match your QT to the "source water" they are coming from. You can slowly raise the SG back up to match your DT just by topping off with saltwater as the QT evaporates.

I wrote this article awhile back "How to Acclimate": https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-acclimate.192300/