Quarantining fish preferred online without copper

[revco33]

I use CP. I bought mine for like 15$. Now the **** isn’t available anywhere. I got a nice bit of it though. You also only need to dose a little bit. It will last a while.

 

[waterskiguy]

You can absolutely leave them in for observation. This is definitely better than adding them directly to your DT, for your other fish sake, but it doesn’t help to insure that the fish are going to make it out of QT alive. The only way, that I know of, is to treat prophylactically with chloroquine phosphate or copper. Some research can be done on specific species and what medications have a higher success rate than others.

 

[waterskiguy]

man. reading this thread has me sweating bullets. like, all my excitement has literally sizzled away. I ordered my first two saltwater fish ever this past Friday from LA Diver's Den - two Dot Clowns. our 100g WB is brand new and cycling with Fritz/Dr.Tims. we bought the tank (our first saltwater) specifically to have Nemo. now, after reading this, i feel very ill prepared for when these two clownfish get here tomorrow morning. i guess i'll just have to hope they live.

are velvet/ich/other diseases really more rampant right now than in years past? am i just totally screwed > we have no quarantine tank as these are our first ever fish....hell, we don't even have a fully cycled system....geeez. what a downer thread-read.

anybody have suggestions on what i should with these clowns arriving by 10:30 in the morning?

Being your first fish, in the tank, you could always add them and hope for the best. If they are diseased, you don’t have other fish to worry about yet. I would wait a couple months, to observe these two, before adding anything else to the tank. I’m sure someone else has a lot more information on this, but this would be my opinion based on my limited knowledge of fish disease. Again, this is just an assumptive opinion of mine.

 

[Greg P]

Copper Power blue is still available and easily read with a Hanna HI702.
Much easier on the fish than Coppersafe and with my wrasse experiences using Chloroquine Phosphate I'd go with the Copper Power.

 

[Aardvark1134]

Copper is poision and can hurt fish long term. There are lots of us that are looking for places that don't use copper for this reason. For those saying nothing but copper and cp work please update your info as there are lots of things that work now. To name a few:
metroplex and KanaPlex™ with focus
prazipro
paraguard

copper should be reserved for fish on deaths door due to how much damage it can do to the fish long term.

 

[svogun]

Since the hanna checker came out for Copper I have been using Copper Power with no issue. I actually acclimate my fish to a QT tank that is at 1.5ppm copper and then slowly ramp up to 2.0.

 

[DeniseAndy]

Are your clowns coming from a dedicated captive bred system? If so, no real need to qt with any meds. Just do not mix any wild with captive bred. This will cause problems as captive bred cannot handle the diseases of the wild.

 

[Bpfor3]

Here are some tank-transfer-method (TTM) options for velvet:
TTM for velvet - https://humble.fish/ttm-for-velvet/ - honestly, I did not know this was a thing. It looks like it would require at least 3 containers to give everything time to dry, perhaps 4 to make cleaning easier. And quite a bit of saltwater, particularly if you're treating larger fish. I think a 20-long is the sweet spot for a TTM tank for large fish, I don't see the benefit of a 29 over a 20-long since they have the same footprint. Regardless, the space you need is only enough for two tanks, so approximately 24"x30" or 12"x60" since only two will be running at any given time. If you were someone that was bringing in many fish fairly often, building a stand for two of these tanks seems like it would be ideal. 7 total tanks full of water, so you're looking at 140g of salt water at 1.021...like 3 bags of plain jane IO, or in other words approximately $20-30 for the peace of mind that you didn't sit your fish in toxic chemicals for 2-4 weeks, regardless of their prevalence of use at LFS (who commonly run less-than-therapeutic levels, like .35). Worth it for some, not for others. But this answers the OPs question.

Experimental TTM with peroxide - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.640247/ - if this works, it would be quite a bit easier than the "TTM for velvet" option since transfers would be less frequent and uses about half the water.

Chemical treatments
Velvet - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/ - notice CP is preferred over copper

Ich - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/ - treatments include TTM, CP, copper, or hyposalinity, in order of my preference...personally I'd rather use CP or copper over hypo since there are some reports of ich surviving hypo. If you're treating velvet with CP or copper it'll snag ich as well.





CP discussions, including where to buy:

Chloroquine phosphate where to buy it??

So, I called a bunch of local vets here in the Sacramento area where I live and I can't seem to get any vet to prescribe me Chloroquine phosphate after I explained that they are for marine fish, etc etc.. they need me to "bring in the patient/animal" in order to prescribe it.. Where the heck can...

www.reef2reef.com

Chloroquine phosphate

Chloroquine Phosphate *** The information contained here is subject to changes as I experiment and learn more about Chloroquine Phosphate *** What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum. How To...

www.reef2reef.com

i was reading this thread and wondered when i would see the TTM for velvet. i just did this for a batch of fish. Will see how it goes. i used a fan to make sure each tank and equipment was completely dry for 24 hours. i used air stones and just threw them away after transfer.

 

[DothanReefer]

Are your clowns coming from a dedicated captive bred system? If so, no real need to qt with any meds. Just do not mix any wild with captive bred. This will cause problems as captive bred cannot handle the diseases of the wild.

Yes, they are coming from Divers Den, but they are an ORA "retired broodstock pair"...

They are here too! Drip acclimating now. One thing I'm very concerned about now though is while I was floating the bags for the 15min temp match, one of them sprung a small leak in the bottom corner. It must have released 20ml or so of the bag water into display. It seems some lessons in this hobby are only learned the hard way. Geeeeez....

But, we got our first fish and the little is super fired up!! And to me, that's all that really matters right now.

Thanks for the input @DeniseAndy !

 

[DeniseAndy]

Man, in that case, I am not sure the facility actually separates the captive bred from the wild in Wisconsin. I have always gotten mine directly from ORA, so no contamination. I would still keep them separate, just in case. Good luck!!!!

 

[DWill]

I use the same 5G buckets I have on hand from multiple salt purchases to do TTM. Hardly what anyone would call a "tank".

How do you get the fish out of one tote and get every bit of the water off and out of the fish from the tote you’re taking it out of? Even a single drop of water and in theory even the water in the gills could transfer ich to the new tote.

Is there a fresh water dip or a interim dip in clean fresh saltwater between totes?

 

[mikeintoronto]

Since I set up my recent tank I’ve had two outbreaks of velvet. The first was strictly my fault by not following good QT. The second was due to poor QT practice (bad TTM). My full system is large at 1000 or so gallons so I can’t afford to get infestations again. The first loss was in an observation tank so it was easy to disinfect but the second made it to the DT. That was a nightmare to address.

I’ve since refined my QT/hospital procedure:
1) ALL fishes are treated with copper and anthias also get metro. I can’t wait to see if uronema develops. I need to be proactive.
2) I place the fishes into 5 gallon bins with full strength saltwater.
3) I’ve measured the exact number of drops of copper solution needed to get the water to therapeutic in the bins. 1/3 dose on day 1, 1/3 on day 2, and full on day 3. Full thereafter. Metro every transfer
4) I tank transfer every 2 days for 15 days. This addresses the ammonia issue and also is frequent enough to get ich and velvet (if it survives copper). If the fish shows slight signs of uronema I treat it with formalin before transfer. Since I inspect every 2 days I haven’t seen uronema so bad I could not use formalin but if it is severe I just move the fish to a palliative tank.
5) I move the fishes to observation for 14 days with black mollies and treat with prazipro for 3 treatments on the first, sixth, and eleventh days. I don’t expect flukes to survive 3 treatments.
6) If the fish looks okay on day 14 it goes in.

I no longer leave fishes in same tank for 14 days with copper. Copper is an immunosuppressant so the fishes were getting secondary bacterial infections which meant additional meds to treat.

If this seems like a lot, try getting a few dozen fishes out of a 10x4’ tank to treat them.

 

[alton]

are velvet/ich/other diseases really more rampant right now than in years past? am i just totally screwed > we have no quarantine tank as these are our first ever fish....hell, we don't even have a fully cycled system....geeez. what a downer thread-read.

Velvet is the only sickness I can't seem to kick and its a nightmare because it can take two weeks to show its ugly head. I freshwater dip and then prazi pro bath for a few hours before my fish go in an isolation tank. 95% of the time it works great except now I have two imperator angels in copper with velvet. And why it it is so important to not drop new fish into a display. And everyone there are always two ways to skin a cat (yes I am old) Harpooning each other doesn't help this site, nor does it prove anything.

 

[lolmatt]

How do you get the fish out of one tote and get every bit of the water off and out of the fish from the tote you’re taking it out of? Even a single drop of water and in theory even the water in the gills could transfer ich to the new tote.

Is there a fresh water dip or a interim dip in clean fresh saltwater between totes?

The science behind TTM is that no free swimmers (theronts/dinospores) will ever be in the ttm tote water. In theory, one could reuse the water between transfers because you assume that the parasite drops off the fish (trophont) immediately into the container and encysts (tomont) into a hard surface (ie the container or tote) at the 0 minute mark each time they're transferred. The time left in the container is short enough that no encysted parasite (tomont) will have had sufficient time to hatch into a theront/dinospore. For ich, they stay in the tomont phase for 72 hours, for velvet 48 hours (see https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/page-12).

In reality, jostling/pouring water from the container could break loose some tomonts, so new water is used. It's highly unlikely that a detached tomont would be in the gills of the fish, minimally so that it's more likely for it to survive copper imo. Meanwhile, the old container is bleached, dried, and left dry for 24hr, which kills the tomonts so the container can be reused.

So, the TTM period is:
Day 1 - fish in tank
Day 2 - 1st transfer at 36 hours
Day 4 - 2nd transfer at 36 hours
Day 5 - 3rd transfer at 36 hours (velvet is probably cured at this point, 1 more xfer to be safe)
(can dose prazipro on day 6, 24hr before xfer)
Day 7 - 4th transfer at 36 hours (velvet is cured at this point)
Day 10 - 5th transfer at 71 hours
(can dose prazipro on day 12, 24hr before xfer)
Day 13 - 6th transfer at 71 hours (ich is also cured at this point)

Tank Transfer Method

Tank Transfer Method What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) only. How To Treat – Tank transfer (TTM) is my favorite method for clearing a fish of Marine Ich, but the prevalence (and similarities) of Marine Velvet Disease can make TTM a risky gamble nowadays. To properly execute...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Jeeperz]

Tank Transfer Method! No copper needed.

Tank transfer only works for ich, not velvet. FYI

 

[lolmatt]

Tank transfer only works for ich, not velvet. FYI

See my reply, this is no longer the case.

 

[Jeeperz]

Copper is poision and can hurt fish long term. There are lots of us that are looking for places that don't use copper for this reason. For those saying nothing but copper and cp work please update your info as there are lots of things that work now. To name a few:
metroplex and KanaPlex™ with focus
prazipro
paraguard

copper should be reserved for fish on deaths door due to how much damage it can do to the fish long term.

I don't believe any of those treatments work for ich/velvet. They work for other infections/issues. Maybe @Humblefish can chime in a clear some of the mis info in this thread.

 

[Jeeperz]

See my reply, this is no longer the case.

You did read that humblefish said that ttm ONLY works for ich, right? It's in the first few sentences of that thread.

 

[lolmatt]

You did read that humblefish said that ttm ONLY works for ich, right? It's in the first few sentences of that thread.

Tank Transfer Method (all versions)

The table and video below are meant to show/explain the differences between the 3 different versions of Tank Transfer Method. If you are completely unfamiliar with TTM, please read more detailed information found in the links below: Standard TTM Velvet TTM Hybrid TTM How to perform a H2O2...

humble.fish

It's here, and further down as an edit on that r2r link. Bottom of the first post.

 

[Jeeperz]

Well, thanks for that. I've read that before but not since the updates. That might be how I go from now on. Question on the 36 and 71 hour marks. How critical are these? Say if I'm an hour or couple hours off, since I have to work and all. Do I not worry about small amounts of water being transferred with net/fish?