Quarantining Puffers and Triggers

Stege_saurus · Aug 9, 2020

Is there a different protocol I should follow when it comes to quarantining and/or prophylactically treating both a Niger Triggerfish and a Porcupine Puffer?
I know puffers are sensitive to copper treatment, but I'm not sure what else should be done with caution. I'm thinking about doing TTM with the puffer.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 9, 2020

Stege_saurus said:
Is there a different protocol I should follow when it comes to quarantining and/or prophylactically treating both a Niger Triggerfish and a Porcupine Puffer?
I know puffers are sensitive to copper treatment, but I'm not sure what else should be done with caution. I'm thinking about doing TTM with the puffer.

Porcupine puffers are fine with organically-chelated copper products like Copper Safe, Cupramine, etc. Wisdom has it that a lot of the "bay fish"; cowfish, porcupinefish, spiny boxfish, etc. are really prone to carrying parasites. I can't give you definitive numbers, but they do often have multiple issues during quarantine...this idea goes all the way back to Robert Straughan's writing in the 1960s.

Jay Hemdal

Redfoxtang · Aug 9, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Porcupine puffers are fine with organically-chelated copper products like Copper Safe, Cupramine, etc. Wisdom has it that a lot of the "bay fish"; cowfish, porcupinefish, spiny boxfish, etc. are really prone to carrying parasites. I can't give you definitive numbers, but they do often have multiple issues during quarantine...this idea goes all the way back to Robert Straughan's writing in the 1960s.

Jay Hemdal

I thought cupramine was an ionic copper?

Stege_saurus · Aug 9, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Porcupine puffers are fine with organically-chelated copper products like Copper Safe, Cupramine, etc. Wisdom has it that a lot of the "bay fish"; cowfish, porcupinefish, spiny boxfish, etc. are really prone to carrying parasites. I can't give you definitive numbers, but they do often have multiple issues during quarantine...this idea goes all the way back to Robert Straughan's writing in the 1960s.

Jay Hemdal

I have a very young puffer, under an inch long. I want to treat him but I'm scared to...

Jay Hemdal · Aug 9, 2020

That's very small. Is it in the genus Diodon?

Redfoxtang said:
I thought cupramine was an ionic copper?

Well, since manufacturers almost never divulge their recipes, I can't say for certain - but "amine" implies it is chelated with a nitrogen compound, so it is one of the organically chelated coppers I think. Another way to tell is based on the as-tested dose. Ionic coppers will test in the range of 0.20 ppm, while organically chelated coppers test around 1 to 2 ppm.

Jay

Stege_saurus · Aug 9, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
That's very small. Is it in the genus Diodon?

Well, since manufacturers almost never divulge their recipes, I can't say for certain - but "amine" implies it is chelated with a nitrogen compound, so it is one of the organically chelated coppers I think. Another way to tell is based on the as-tested dose. Ionic coppers will test in the range of 0.20 ppm, while organically chelated coppers test around 1 to 2 ppm.

Jay

Yes. I can snap a pic of him when I get home later if it helps matters. He currently doesn't show any signs of disease or parasite. He is very curious though.

Jay Hemdal · Aug 9, 2020

Stege_saurus said:
I have a very young puffer, under an inch long. I want to treat him but I'm scared to...

There is an issue with small fish having a higher surface to volume ratio. In theory, smaller fish are more sensitive to medications dosed in the water. I've never copper dosed a porcupine puffer smaller than 2", so I can't say for certain if you will see a problem. The TTM would be safer, and will work for Cryptocaryon, but not other diseases the puffer could carry.

Jay

Stege_saurus · Aug 9, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
There is an issue with small fish having a higher surface to volume ratio. In theory, smaller fish are more sensitive to medications dosed in the water. I've never copper dosed a porcupine puffer smaller than 2", so I can't say for certain if you will see a problem. The TTM would be safer, and will work for Cryptocaryon, but not other diseases the puffer could carry.

Jay

This is the little guys the PVC to the right is 3".

JBKReef · May 18, 2021

Could I ask for an update here?

I’m about to pull the trigger on a 1 3/4” porcupine puffer but plan on doing a full QT with copper and praziquantel

how did your tiny puffer do?

Rhyso · Sep 7, 2021

JBKReef said:
Could I ask for an update here?

I’m about to pull the trigger on a 1 3/4” porcupine puffer but plan on doing a full QT with copper and praziquantel

how did your tiny puffer do?

I am about to start QT on a small Porcupine, about 1.5" in length. How did yours go?
What treatments did you carry out?
TIA

Intense37754 · Sep 7, 2021

Rhyso said:
I am about to start QT on a small Porcupine, about 1.5" in length. How did yours go?
What treatments did you carry out?
TIA

Make sure you do a full quarantine. Almost every puffer I had brought something with them!
Are you running copper or TTM?

Rhyso · Sep 7, 2021

Intense37754 said:
Make sure you do a full quarantine. Almost every puffer I had brought something with them!
Are you running copper or TTM?

I was planning on TTM due to the fact that i have read puffers don't like copper ... thoughts?
What else should I be treating for and with what?

Sorry for dumb questions ... I'm new to the game.

Jay Hemdal · Sep 7, 2021

Rhyso said:
I was planning on TTM due to the fact that i have read puffers don't like copper ... thoughts?
What else should I be treating for and with what?

Sorry for dumb questions ... I'm new to the game.

TTM is pretty good at controlling ich, but not so much for velvet or flukes. I use coppersafe on puffers and have had no issues.
Jay

Intense37754 · Sep 7, 2021

Copper power up to 2.0cu and you really need a Hanna copper checker for accuracy

if you do TTM make sure you move him every 36hrs and and a way they are never out of water. I read vets and biologist removing them to trim beak but I’m not a pro so I keep them submerged
When doing TTM dose GC to cover flukes, uronema and brook and if the same after copper if you choose that route.

They are hands down like a puppy and want attention like everyone says

Rhyso · Sep 8, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
TTM is pretty good at controlling ich, but not so much for velvet or flukes. I use coppersafe on puffers and have had no issues.
Jay

Hi Jay,
I don’t have Coppersafe and not sure if we can get that here is Australia. I have Cuprimine, will that work? And does copper also treat for Velvet and Flukes?
Thanks

Jay Hemdal · Sep 8, 2021

Rhyso said:
Hi Jay,
I don’t have Coppersafe and not sure if we can get that here is Australia. I have Cuprimine, will that work? And does copper also treat for Velvet and Flukes?
Thanks

Cupramine seems to be a bit harsher than Coppersafe, I cannot say if it is safe for puffers. No copper products are really good at treating flukes, best to use Praziquantel. You can use TTM to control ich, and then do a run of prazi to control flukes. OR: you could do 35 days of hyposalinity and catch bith ich and flukes (but not velvet).

Jay

Rhyso · Sep 8, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
Cupramine seems to be a bit harsher than Coppersafe, I cannot say if it is safe for puffers. No copper products are really good at treating flukes, best to use Praziquantel. You can use TTM to control ich, and then do a run of prazi to control flukes. OR: you could do 35 days of hyposalinity and catch bith ich and flukes (but not velvet).

Jay

Thanks a lot Jay! Very much appreciated mate