Humblefish
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I would like to see these studies. How does one determine that "stress" is the cause of death??
Quarantining: The pros & cons
- Thread starter Humblefish
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I would like to see these studies. How does one determine that "stress" is the cause of death??
Subsea
5000 Club Member
I would like to see these studies. How does one determine that "stress" is the cause of death??
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145305X17301118
Humblefish
Dr. Fish
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Will read this evening. Thanks.
pickupman66
5000 Club Member
First off, I am NOT an expert in QT.. I have never set one up. I setup my first hospital/QT this weekend due to a Crypt on the fish found in my DT. It took well over a month or longer for this to even show so I am pretty upset. I obtained a Yellow long nose butterfly on June 29th. just noticed the infection early August. UGH! White spots. Not cool.
Anyways, I was able to catch the little guy and setup a hospital tank with what I had on hand.
I also ordered paraguard, and after a futile effort thus far with the angel (my tank will camp out in the trap) I overnighted some Metroplex and Focus to feed in the DT as a latch ditch effort along with adding UV to the DT.
Overall the hospital tank (which will now become my QT) was quite cheap to put together. It sits on the kitchen counter and will stay there for a month with the butterfly in it. I am ashamed to have never done it before.
image of how he looked at the store.
Anyways, I was able to catch the little guy and setup a hospital tank with what I had on hand.
- cheap HOB filter from walmart.
- 10 gallon tank I had reserved for Clownfish rearing
- extra heater
- extra koralia nano
I also ordered paraguard, and after a futile effort thus far with the angel (my tank will camp out in the trap) I overnighted some Metroplex and Focus to feed in the DT as a latch ditch effort along with adding UV to the DT.
Overall the hospital tank (which will now become my QT) was quite cheap to put together. It sits on the kitchen counter and will stay there for a month with the butterfly in it. I am ashamed to have never done it before.
image of how he looked at the store.
Subsea
5000 Club Member
I reread the link that I provided. While it did go into great detail on reasons for death in commercially farmed fish showing 19% loss to pathogens, the reference to 60% loss to stress was not in the link. I read it, but I can’t find the reference.
You are right about how does one conclusively prove stress killed by itself. Stress contributes to the six leading causes of death to people in America. Much research money goes into this contributor to all six major causes of death. How much does stress contribute to cause of death is a “question of semantics”. It contributes by compromising auto immune system.
How does one prove that stress kill fish? It would be hard to deny it. The first time that I saw it was in a pet shop. An overly active child slapped a tank with fish in it with resulting flight response of fish in school, except for the one fish that died. In that case, it was pretty obvious that fright killed the fish. As in the case of which came first, the chicken or the egg, stress is a major contributor to fish death, either stress by itself or a compromised immune system because of stress. Considering the holistic nature of fish immune system, the percentage contributor is difficult to quantify. I can’t prove what percentage was stress alone and what percentage was due to pathogens.
In any case, may we remove stress from our lives.
Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
Patrick
Trickman2
Well-Known Member
@Trickman2 Unfortunately, treating live animals is never quick or easy. Too many variables to consider. Life is too diverse, and that includes unwanted pathogens. It would be like taking a person who has been living in the woods to the doctor, and saying, "I want this person cleaned up in a cost-effective, timely manner."Maybe the person just has some ticks, or maybe a tick bite transmitted a virus or caused a nasty infection.
That all being said, I do worry sometimes that people are becoming a little OCD when it comes to QT. You most certainly want to pay close attention to detail and make adjustments as needed. However, sometimes you've done all you can do as a "fish doctor", and the fish is either gonna make it or he won't. And you just have to live with that, knowing you did the best you possibly could under the circumstances. Some of these fish I have been receiving are so disease-ridden & malnourished that they basically had no chance from the get-go. And that applies whether you choose to QT or not. The only difference is QT prevents that fish's problem(s) from being shared with all your other fish.
I do agree and yes it would be great in a perfect world to be done on a case by case basis. I just think it is unrealistic to think that will ever happen. Being in the hobby for a very long time I think the only way would be to have a simple QT option with a broad shotgun approach to what is treated. This would go along way in just getting new hobbyist to QT in general. Not everyone is as immersed in the hobby and may take several years to get up to speed. I think we often forget this or just choose to ignore this. Even then many will fail and just throw in the towel due to frustration. Even some of the best throw in the towel because of the work it can require and cost factors. The average person who walks into the Petco or another chain store. Says oh pretty... how do I get these ones? They don't even want to look at a book. Even awesome series like the REEF Fishes volumes got canceled due to lack of interest. I worked for one summer at a chain similar to Petco when I was much much younger about 25 years ago. Day in and day out was how pretty and how do I get some. Any mention of reading a book was frowned upon and the company wanted sales. I was not impressed and quit after only a summer. The subject on Quarantining and best practices are still up for debate even after all these years. Being a Marine Aquarist is vast in topics and no one can be a expert in everything. Forums came along and have opened pathways of communication. Some in good ways and some in bad. I have not seen a new saltwater aquarium book published in a long time and believe this is due to the information available free online. This is truly a double edged sword with a lot of opinions and just bad information mixed in with the good. Aquarium books offered a good starting foundation to build on. A lot has changed and a lot has not over the years. It's truly a mixed bag of good and bad.
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chipmunkofdoom2
Always Making Something
I'd like to see these studies as well. At the National Aquarium, we perform a necropsy every single death that occurs in the building. I can't share any actual necropsy reports, but I've never seen a report on a fish that died in QT that didn't have a specific cause of death, such as an internal/external parasite, damaged organs consistent with cyanide exposure, etc.
Trickman2
Well-Known Member
That is nice but did stress play a role in this? Can you prove that stress didn't compromise the fishes immune system or that you can truly rid a fish tank of all diseases/parasites,etc? Not everyone has the ability to perform necropsy to gather scientific data. Even then your hypothesis could be completely off base and still not seeing the whole picture. We tend to do that very well to prove our points and that we are right. My opinion is going to be that you can't sterilize a system of all diseases unless you kill everything including the fish. Think hand sanitizer and killing all good bacteria and bad when you use an antibiotic. Even the use of copper has come into debate on if it damages the fish itself. One thing we can prove is long-terms of stress is bad for every animal. Lastly, if you are going to state that you do a necropsy report on every fish that dies you should provide at least one or two common reports conducted for reference to the community.
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MnFish1
10K Club member
What it actually said in the article is that of fish that died from 'Infections causes' 19% are from PARASITES (not pathogens as you stated). (Among the most common causative agents of infectious diseases in aquaculture are bacteria (54.9%), followed by viruses (22.6%), parasites (19.4%) and fungi (3.1%) (McLoughlin and Graham, 2007).)
One problem is how to define 'Stress'. Environmental stress (parameters/temp, etc), Nutritional stress (food/types of food), Predator/competition stress. I guarantee you that there is also 'stress' on the reef itself. The question I have is - how much do the stresses we provide in our tanks differ from the 'stresses' fish have everyday on the reef. I.e. though fish kept in an ideal low-stress environment have some improvement in their immune parameters (whether those improvements are clinically significant of not is up for debate) - Is there a significant survival benefit to those fish?
In other words just because you can show cortisol (which is a stress hormone - and decreases immune function) is released when fish chase each other in a tank - is there any data that show the stressed fish 'die faster' than ones that are 'not stressed'.
BTW I think its best to feed the most nutritional balanced food possible to try to minimize nutritional stress.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I agree with this post, that said, every aquarium and zoo has a QT/biocontainment program (you can google the protocols used by some of the major zoos/aquaria and read them). I personally have never quarantined and I have lost fish to ich and velvet. One time - in a dramatic fashion.
It really seems to me that the BEST way for beginners and experienced reefers alike would be for the companies that sell fish to the public do so only after an appropriate industry standardized quarantine system. Doing it this way would result in more expensive fish, but it would also mean less losses in the tanks of fish stores and our tanks.
MnFish1
10K Club member
First off, I am NOT an expert in QT.. I have never set one up. I setup my first hospital/QT this weekend due to a Crypt on the fish found in my DT. It took well over a month or longer for this to even show so I am pretty upset. I obtained a Yellow long nose butterfly on June 29th. just noticed the infection early August. UGH! White spots. Not cool.
Anyways, I was able to catch the little guy and setup a hospital tank with what I had on hand.
Very little cost in the above. Not wanting to deal with Copper, I had intended to go Hypo on this. However, I wanted to add my potters angel to the mix, but thus far he has not cooperated with the trap (been at it since Friday night). So, I bought some API super ICK Cure locally. I already had some stabilty bacteria and Dr Tims Eco balance. so Stabilty was dosed (and continues) into the system to get a bacteria colony up.
- cheap HOB filter from walmart.
- 10 gallon tank I had reserved for Clownfish rearing
- extra heater
- extra koralia nano
I also ordered paraguard, and after a futile effort thus far with the angel (my tank will camp out in the trap) I overnighted some Metroplex and Focus to feed in the DT as a latch ditch effort along with adding UV to the DT.
Overall the hospital tank (which will now become my QT) was quite cheap to put together. It sits on the kitchen counter and will stay there for a month with the butterfly in it. I am ashamed to have never done it before.
image of how he looked at the store.
Correct me if I'm wrong - but - this would suggest that all of the fish in your tank are exposed/ and or carry ich. If you just treat one fish, when you put it in, it may do ok (because it was infected it has some immunity) - but it may just become quickly reinfected. I thought the way to do this properly is to remove all the fish and treat them, leaving the tank fallow for 76 days. @Humblefish
Another possibility is that it was merely a low-grade infection which the butterfly was fighting adequately. (The UV you added will likely help as well)
Trickman2
Well-Known Member
Very rare in the industry and unrealistic that it will ever get implemented on a large scale. Also the cost would be formidable for any company to make happen. I think the brick and mortar aquarium stores are in a enough hardship at this point already. Maybe some cool big company aquarium company is reading this and designs a easy QT system for the average fish tank owner.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Yeah - you may be right. But I already will only buy from an LFS that has a quarantine 'plan' - and one that allows one to watch fish in a natural reef-tank (i.e. containing no copper ) with inverts for a time. This store is more expensive - but I have had no losses (from them) - or in my tank since purchasing fish from them. Its completely anecdotal of course.Very rare in the industry and unrealistic that it will ever get implemented on a large scale. Also the cost would be formidable for any company to make happen. I think the brick and mortar aquarium stores are in a enough hardship at this point already. Maybe some cool big company aquarium company is reading this and designs a easy QT system for the average fish tank owner.
Greenstreet.1
5000 Club Member
Very rare in the industry and unrealistic that it will ever get implemented on a large scale. Also the cost would be formidable for any company to make happen. I think the brick and mortar aquarium stores are in a enough hardship at this point already. Maybe some cool big company aquarium company is reading this and designs a easy QT system for the average fish tank owner.
I’m starting to see this said a lot.
What is meant by easy qt system ?
chipmunkofdoom2
Always Making Something
No, I can't prove that stress weakened the immune system and made the fish more susceptible to disease. But, you can't prove that it did. You have not provided any evidence to the claim that 60% of fatalities in fish occur because of stress. So, while I respect you and your opinion, I also must disagree.
I also respectfully disagree with the notion that you cannot have a disease-free fish. Displays like the Aquarium's Black Tip Reef have over a thousand individual animals. This would not be possible if any single one of them had a communicable fish disease. Sure, sometimes individual fish may get infections and need to be treated, but diseases like ich, velvet or Brooklynella would devastate that display. We don't have the resources to quarantine and medicate every animal in that display. So, we QT with an almost militant discipline, and interestingly, no diseases get in the tank.
You don't need to do a necropsy or to gather data to make informed descisions. You have the experience of reefers like @Humblefish, @4FordFamily and many other experience fish disease veterans who have already done the research for you. Fish don't die without reason. Does stress likely play a part in fishes getting sick? Sure. Have you, or has anyone else, successfully quantified that? Not that I am aware of, although if you have these resources, I'd love to see them. Quarantine tanks, if properly set up, are not that different than display tanks. A display tank has a way to remediate ammonia and plenty of hiding places. So does a good QT. There are some fish that are ill, sick, or injured, and are just going to die in QT. Putting them in QT didn't make them die though. You advise me to look outside my own experiences and question my hyposthesis, but again, with respect, your experience is just an anecdote too. I'd advise you attempt to broaden your horizons as well. Talk to people who disagree with you, not just those with whom you agree.
We don't just necropsy fish, we necropsy every single animal that dies. Every snake, every frog, every turtle, every eel, every ray, every skate and every abalone. And as I said though, I cannot release that information publicly. We partner with Johns Hopkins for the necropsy services and there are confidentiality agreements to which we must adhere. Fun fact, I'm also not allowed to share any pictures taken in backup or non-public areas without express written permission of my supervisor. I value my work at the Aquarium much more than I would value losing it to share confidential necropsy reports with you, especially since it does not sound like any information will convince you that QT doesn't kill.
Maybe some cool big company aquarium company is reading this and designs a easy QT system for the average fish tank owner.
This is unnecessary. All you need is a standard 20g - 30g aquarium, a heater, a pump, some PVC elbows and an ammonia badge.
pickupman66
5000 Club Member
absolutely I am aware of that, but not wanting to tear down the entire reef to get everyone else out. this is a 4 year old system that is very well grown in. with the others not showing any signs (except the angel) we plan to feed Metroplex for 45 days to see if we can break it there. at that time we will introduce the butterfly back.
Humblefish
Dr. Fish
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I don't deny that stress can be a contributing factor with regards to poor health and even death. For example, a fish with a preexisting parasitic or worm infestation is more likely to succumb if also exposed to a "stressor event" such as poor diet, an environmental problem in the aquarium or aggression from other fish. Conversely, a diseased fish is more likely to overcome (or at least successfully manage) if fed vitamin enriched foods, is provided with pristine water conditions, not housed with aggressive tank mates, etc. The latter serves to boost their natural immune system, while the former only lowers it.
I think any fish that would die from stress alone will never make it to a LFS in the first place. Think about it... the fish is snatched out of the ocean sometimes using unscrupulous techniques, housed in dirty/diseased water at the collection facility, is put in a bag and shipped thousands of miles, and the only food the fish sees is flake or pellets at the wholesaler (which they usually won't eat.) Some fish are shipped out to a LFS (or online sale) the very same day the wholesaler receives them.
An estimated 70-90% of fish don't survive all this, so as bad as the supply chain is right now it's safe to say the fish we are getting are still the "toughest" of the lot.
I think any fish that would die from stress alone will never make it to a LFS in the first place. Think about it... the fish is snatched out of the ocean sometimes using unscrupulous techniques, housed in dirty/diseased water at the collection facility, is put in a bag and shipped thousands of miles, and the only food the fish sees is flake or pellets at the wholesaler (which they usually won't eat.) Some fish are shipped out to a LFS (or online sale) the very same day the wholesaler receives them.
An estimated 70-90% of fish don't survive all this, so as bad as the supply chain is right now it's safe to say the fish we are getting are still the "toughest" of the lot.
Trickman2
Well-Known Member
I understand what a QT System is and it is nice that you think you know it all
. I have been in this hobby for over 25 years and still believe we are just at the tip of the iceberg on what we know. Guess what it wasn't the public aquariums that got us where we are today. Arrogance, will always get you into trouble and blind you. Also don't forget that a Hypothesis is Never Proven Correct, nor is a Theory Ever Proven to Be True. This debate will go on for a long time. You can't prove you don't have any parasites in your tanks and I find it humorous that you think you can. Can you tell me you guy's aren't running UV sterilizers on these systems? You have healthy fish that can defend for themselves at the moment. Now if treating with copper, other medicines and trying to give them a environment to heal up in before being released in the population is the solution is up for debate. Also I have never stated that a QT system kills the fish...You might want to re-read before you make statements of that nature. The benefit of copper is another issue up for debate, hell even the use of garlic additives have come up for debate. I just gave a solution to how to get more people to QT fish. If you did a poll why the new or average aquarist didn't do a QT tank it would be most likely due to convenience, cost, lack of knowledge on how to and not being patient. NOT EVERYONE HAS THE LUXURY OF A HUGE BUDGET AND SPACE NEEDED FOR A DEDICATED QT SYSTEM LIKE A LARGE SCALE PUBLIC AQUARIUM. Even then many public aquariums are pathetic in comparison to some reef tanks in this community. HENCE WHY I STATED in my original thread.
If you want to get people to QT then things need to be simplified and timeframes reduced.
It can be done but the KISS approach needs to be applied.
- A good manufacturer needs to come out with a reasonable QT kit that can be taken down and stored easily. Somewhat pleasing to the eye, at least not ugly.
- Minimal initial Cost - IE probably 100 hundred or less. Thinking 60 dollars. Manufacturers can recoup cost on QT kits, Think Printers. (Things like pre measured formula for dosing the QT tank)
- The formula created should be created to ensure speed plus best results. Studies, would need to be conducted and provided results.
- FASTEST QT time possibles need to be discovered. People don't want to wait a month.
- It needs to be really really easy, You want everyone to QT. including freshwater people. It needs to be easy to upsell for the aquarium shops and industry.
- High success rate
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ScooterV
Well-Known Member
This reads almost like Vax vs. Anti-Vax for humans
Here's a thought though... Stress likely can kill. Velvet is pretty stressful I'm sure, and if I was a fish I'd be stressed!!! Extreme layman's comparison I know, but if a person gets cancer they will be stressed!! We also know long term stress reduces our ability to fight disease and worsens other conditions. Yet, we don't ignore treating high blood pressure, heart disease, or vaccinating for other possibilities of actual disease or health conditions. In my mind, stress certainly plays a role, but disease exists and needs to be addressed regardless.
We all do the best we can, and we all also make mistakes. Some, like me just recently, makes mistakes when we knew better. There is plenty of room for more learning, studies at a higher level, etc. yet arguing about if stress or the underlying disease should be worried about at all seems a little silly to me. The disease itself still existed and needed to be either prevented or treated. Addressing stress also seems like a good plan, but after the disease is treated. Well, I guess treating only stress for a fish with velvet would be a bit like hospice care?
Here's a thought though... Stress likely can kill. Velvet is pretty stressful I'm sure, and if I was a fish I'd be stressed!!! Extreme layman's comparison I know, but if a person gets cancer they will be stressed!! We also know long term stress reduces our ability to fight disease and worsens other conditions. Yet, we don't ignore treating high blood pressure, heart disease, or vaccinating for other possibilities of actual disease or health conditions. In my mind, stress certainly plays a role, but disease exists and needs to be addressed regardless.
We all do the best we can, and we all also make mistakes. Some, like me just recently, makes mistakes when we knew better. There is plenty of room for more learning, studies at a higher level, etc. yet arguing about if stress or the underlying disease should be worried about at all seems a little silly to me. The disease itself still existed and needed to be either prevented or treated. Addressing stress also seems like a good plan, but after the disease is treated. Well, I guess treating only stress for a fish with velvet would be a bit like hospice care?
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