Question about black ich

[shoelaceike]

I have a few fish in my QT that I wanted to transfer today. I noticed though that my yellow tang is full of black ich. I already did 2 treatments of API general cure obviously it didn't work. Can I do a freshwater bath or a prazi bath and get rid of everything on the fish right away?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have a few fish in my QT that I wanted to transfer today. I noticed though that my yellow tang is full of black ich. I already did 2 treatments of API general cure obviously it didn't work. Can I do a freshwater bath or a prazi bath and get rid of everything on the fish right away?

Typically, no - they are very deeply encysted. A bigger issue for me would be, if they have black ich right now, then the quarantine method wasn't complete. They could well have other parasites, and then moving them would be a disaster.

Here are the treatments I have listed for this issue:

Treatment options

Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:

Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.

A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.

Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.

Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.

Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay

 

[brandon429]

The level of malady in marine fish is beyond amazing to me. If this happened with common freshwater fish to this degree the industry would tank.

 

[shoelaceike]

Typically, no - they are very deeply encysted. A bigger issue for me would be, if they have black ich right now, then the quarantine method wasn't complete. They could well have other parasites, and then moving them would be a disaster.

Here are the treatments I have listed for this issue:

Treatment options

Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:

Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.

A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.

Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.

Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.

Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay

Thanks. They were in copper for 14 days so there is no chance of ich or velvet on any of the fish...I thought the GC would take care of the black ich. If I treat Prazi pro, how long will it take until I'm sure that its gone from the actual fish? Also, my prazi pro is expired about a year...is it ok to use? I've never used it before.....it looks like a thick pink liquid.

 

[shoelaceike]

Also, if I do a 45 minute formalin dip on all my fish, I can then transfer them straight to the DT?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks. They were in copper for 14 days so there is no chance of ich or velvet on any of the fish...I thought the GC would take care of the black ich. If I treat Prazi pro, how long will it take until I'm sure that its gone from the actual fish? Also, my prazi pro is expired about a year...is it ok to use? I've never used it before.....it looks like a thick pink liquid.

14 days of copper is not 100% sure. I hold fish in 30 days of copper, followed by two weeks of prazi followed by a 2 week observation period...and even that won't stop all diseases. Prazipro should be a clear liquid, so I wouldn't use that expired material. The formalin dip outlined is also not a 100% thing, no dip ever is. The idea would be to use it as part of a tank transfer method, and dip and move a couple of times, then watch the fish for a couple of weeks to ensure they black ich doesn't come back.

Jay

 

[shoelaceike]

Typically, no - they are very deeply encysted. A bigger issue for me would be, if they have black ich right now, then the quarantine method wasn't complete. They could well have other parasites, and then moving them would be a disaster.

Here are the treatments I have listed for this issue:

Treatment options

Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:

Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.

A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.

Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.

Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.

Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay

Here is what I'm thinking. I know that this may not be 100% but I can live with that. I want to be as safe as possible

14 days of copper is not 100% sure. I hold fish in 30 days of copper, followed by two weeks of prazi followed by a 2 week observation period...and even that won't stop all diseases. Prazipro should be a clear liquid, so I wouldn't use that expired material. The formalin dip outlined is also not a 100% thing, no dip ever is. The idea would be to use it as part of a tank transfer method, and dip and move a couple of times, then watch the fish for a couple of weeks to ensure they black ich doesn't come back.

Jay

Ok thanks...however for ich and velvet, isn't the max amount of time the parasite lives on the fish, 7 days? Once it falls off, if the correct amount of copper is used, shouldn't that prevent any fish from being infected?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Here is what I'm thinking. I know that this may not be 100% but I can live with that. I want to be as safe as possible

Ok thanks...however for ich and velvet, isn't the max amount of time the parasite lives on the fish, 7 days? Once it falls off, if the correct amount of copper is used, shouldn't that prevent any fish from being infected?

Actually no, ich can live for quite some time without a fish host. I always used 45 days as my safety margin, but search for "fallow period" here and you'll see that many people use 76 days.

Jay

 

[shoelaceike]

Actually no, ich can live for quite some time without a fish host. I always used 45 days as my safety margin, but search for "fallow period" here and you'll see that many people use 76 days.

Jay

I understand what you mean but I'm talking about on the fish. Say you have fish with ich in QT with 2 PPM of copper. The ich will stay on the fish for 5-7 days and then fall off. Assuming the copper level stays, how can the fish get reinfected?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I understand what you mean but I'm talking about on the fish. Say you have fish with ich in QT with 2 PPM of copper. The ich will stay on the fish for 5-7 days and then fall off. Assuming the copper level stays, how can the fish get reinfected?

IDK the exact mechanism, but copper isn't a 100% thing, nor are the various timing systems. I've just seen too many people run copper for 14 days, move the fish and then deal with ich in their DT. Part of it may be due to people ramping up copper slowly and then counting that towards their "14 days" or problems with test kits reading high, or just that copper kills ich slower than people realize it does (especially the organically bonded coppers that everyone uses now).

Jay

 

[shoelaceike]

IDK the exact mechanism, but copper isn't a 100% thing, nor are the various timing systems. I've just seen too many people run copper for 14 days, move the fish and then deal with ich in their DT. Part of it may be due to people ramping up copper slowly and then counting that towards their "14 days" or problems with test kits reading high, or just that copper kills ich slower than people realize it does (especially the organically bonded coppers that everyone uses now).

Jay

Oh ok thank you for that....BTW, how long does prazi pro take to work?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Oh ok thank you for that....BTW, how long does prazi pro take to work?

Prazipro may need to be dosed multiple times. I think the bottle says twice, but you might need to dose three times in order to catch anything that hatches out from eggs (a week apart is standard, and water changes between doses is probably a good idea). Always increase the aeration in a tank being dosed with prazi (see bacteria issue below).

Now, how long does Prazipro remain active in a tank? That is a tough question. The first time you add it, the activity persists for probably 24+ hours. After each use though, bacteria grows in your tank that actually consumes the praziquantel, as well as its solvent. The next time you dose, the prazi may be consumed within 12 hours, the time after that, perhaps 4 hours. This leads to people saying there are "prazi resistant" parasites out there, because any subsequent treatments to that same tank, the prazi is consumed before it can even work!

Jay

 

[shoelaceike]

Prazipro may need to be dosed multiple times. I think the bottle says twice, but you might need to dose three times in order to catch anything that hatches out from eggs (a week apart is standard, and water changes between doses is probably a good idea). Always increase the aeration in a tank being dosed with prazi (see bacteria issue below).

Now, how long does Prazipro remain active in a tank? That is a tough question. The first time you add it, the activity persists for probably 24+ hours. After each use though, bacteria grows in your tank that actually consumes the praziquantel, as well as its solvent. The next time you dose, the prazi may be consumed within 12 hours, the time after that, perhaps 4 hours. This leads to people saying there are "prazi resistant" parasites out there, because any subsequent treatments to that same tank, the prazi is consumed before it can even work!

Jay

Very interesting. Thank you!!

 

[itselenababe]

Typically, no - they are very deeply encysted. A bigger issue for me would be, if they have black ich right now, then the quarantine method wasn't complete. They could well have other parasites, and then moving them would be a disaster.

Here are the treatments I have listed for this issue:

Treatment options

Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:

Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.

A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.

Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.

Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.

Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay

I’m in Canada, are there any other ways to get rid of it without these meds? My friend has two harlequin filefish that have black ich (we think)

Sorry to hijack this post!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Formalin or praziquantel are the most common treatments, but difficult to get in Canada. A five minute freshwater dip can help with control, but returning the fish to the same tank may result in reinfection.

Are the number of spots on the filefish increasing? If not, and if they are in the same location every day, you may not have turbellarian worms (black ich) but rather, a digenetic trematode. These worms get into the fish's skin which produces dark pigment to try and wall off the parasite. The good thing about these worms is that they require multiple hosts - a snail, maybe a bird, etc. They will not increase in numbers in your tank and will eventually die off.

Jay

 

[itselenababe]

Formalin or praziquantel are the most common treatments, but difficult to get in Canada. A five minute freshwater dip can help with control, but returning the fish to the same tank may result in reinfection.

Are the number of spots on the filefish increasing? If not, and if they are in the same location every day, you may not have turbellarian worms (black ich) but rather, a digenetic trematode. These worms get into the fish's skin which produces dark pigment to try and wall off the parasite. The good thing about these worms is that they require multiple hosts - a snail, maybe a bird, etc. They will not increase in numbers in your tank and will eventually die off.

Jay

we’re now leaning towards some type of worm (like mentioned). Going to try freshwater bath as well as hyposalinity, any other suggestions?