Question for LED owners

[ca2or]

I have been into reefing for a long time, not as long as some of you, but longer than most. I have always been an MH guy. I know that LED's are taking over, which to a degree I anticipated, but there are a couple things that itch my brain and I would like to scratch that itch.

Seems there is always talk about intensity, PAR, and spectrum. However it also appears that every manufacturer out there displays their results but they all test in air....not in water. So when they say 260 PAR at 12 inches....they are referring to 12 inches below the light....in midair. Seems to be a tad misleading. And ALL of them do this. So here are my questions.

1. How many LED owners out there run their lights at 100%?
2. Do LED's really produce equivalent growth and color as MH or T5's? Meaning does 14k on an LED unit produce similar color and growth as a 14k MH?
3. They say "wattage doesn't matter with LED's. If that's the case then what does?
4. Does PAR actually matter? I see a lot of threads on AI Primes along with discussions about it's PAR and how it is only 260 at 12 inches and how it isn't strong enough. But I also see other LED's that people swear by and am seeing similar PAR readings.

Again, I know LED is the wave of the future so to speak, at least until Plasma becomes affordable, but I have a bit of a confidence issue with LED's. I have tried twice in the past to run LED's and both times ended in disaster. MH on the other hand has never failed me. But it seems awfully hard to know what LED unit to look at when addressing your lights.

 

[ca2or]

I snagged this from another thread on R2R regarding lights. This is from a Radion....I don't see 500 PAR anywhere. I mean look at 12 inches...dead center is 135. So is the 260 PAR from the AI Prime that big of an issue?

Credit to Watdachuck for this image.

 

[cginter]

Your gonna get a lot of different opinions with the LED subject. I'm willing to bet that most people who do use LEDs have not measured par but simply adjusted the lights to how they like them "to look". As most people don't have par meters. But I'll answer your questions according to "my" opinions.

1). I run my blues at 100% for 8 hrs and my whites at 20% for 4hrs. The lights are 12" above the water.

2) I use full spectrum led units, andfor me, the color and growth are great, polyp extension was better with MH/t5 combo for me though. They say 120w of leds are equivalent to a 400w MH. I would have to agree with that as LEDs have a much greater chance to burn corals, and to me are much brighter than my old MH fixture. But I couldn't accurately answer that as I haven't used a par meter on either.

3) wattage does matter and some people will say better brands will produce a more pure light. Whatever that means. All my fixtures use bridglux LEDs. Cree seems to be the king in the name brand game.

4). PAR. I'm sure it does matter but most people, like I, don't have access to a par meter so we adjust it to how we like it to look. Is this the correct way? NO. But it's worked for me. I would love to know the PAR reading in my tank though. I'm sure it would shed some info for me.

The biggest thing with LEDs I think is acclimating corals to the light if they are coming from being under t5's or MH. If not properly done, it won't make it. But if coming from a tank under LEDs it's much higher success rate. Where as a tank using t5's or MH I believe the acclamation is almost none.

But this is MY opinions. I'm sure youll get a lot of mixed opinions. [emoji16]

 

[cginter]

. Under 3 120w led units. The cheap ones.

 

[ca2or]

Great looking tank. I agree with your opinion, I just think it's so hard for someone just getting into this or first time LED purchases to know what to be looking for. I can admit, I just don't know anymore. When I think LED I constantly keep thinking Radion since I figure Ecotech have the most to lose if their product isn't up to snuff. But that is not really a good reason to make the decision off of. For example everyone knows with MH....10k produces growth with some color, 20k produces color with some growth, 14k is the "sweet spot" where you get a bit of both. But that is MH logic....was pretty simple. Or at least that is my opinion.

The other thing is if you aren't running them at 100% then doesn't that just defeat the purchase of the unit? I mean if you pick up Radion's at $500+ but only run them at 40% with a PAR of 260 at 12 inches....couldn't you have saved $200+ and picked up a cheaper unit that will hit the same readings at 100%? I mean yeah....the Radion will give you the ability to hike it up but how many do?

This thread is not meant to be a product promotion or bashing thread BTW.

 

[BryanS4]

Are we sure that every manufacture measures in air? This doesn't make sense to me. If I measure in air my numbers would be so much higher than what's being talked about above.

I run lower end Led's, Ocean Revive and my par is approx below. Mine sit 12" above the water line running at 70/50 BW and just under the water line I get 400. At the top of my rocks 350/325, mid tank 250/225 and sand bed 150/125. I tested these numbers over a number of days with an Apogee par meter.

**Edit- Should mention three lights running on a 125g.

I have since added two supplemental T5's, but I have gotten my hands on the par meter since adding them a few months back.

Below is from the OR website and these numbers are below the waterline.

 

[ca2or]

Are we sure that every manufacture measures in air? This doesn't make sense to me. If I measure in air my numbers would be so much higher than what's being talked about above.

I run lower end Led's, Ocean Revive and my par is approx below. Mine sit 12" above the water line running at 70/50 BW and just under the water line I get 400. At the top of my rocks 350/325, mid tank 250/225 and sand bed 150/125. I tested these numbers over a number of days with an Apogee par meter.

I have since added two supplemental T5's, but I have gotten my hands on the par meter since adding them a few months back.

Below is from the OR website and these numbers are below the waterline.

To my understanding a large majority of manufacturers measure mid air. It makes sense to a degree since there are so many variables if measured in water....saltwater vs fresh, moving vs stagnant, and so on.

 

[twilliard]

Orphek atlantik 14" to waterline running at 70%

 

[BryanS4]

To my understanding a large majority of manufacturers measure mid air. It makes sense to a degree since there are so many variables if measured in water....saltwater vs fresh, moving vs stagnant, and so on.

Not doubting, just wanting to understand because it would go against the testing that I have done on my tank and also from what others in my area have reported on. Granted all test I have done have been in saltwater, but I always turn off all pumps, power heads ect, as I know that would change the results.

Maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[cginter]

Great looking tank. I agree with your opinion, I just think it's so hard for someone just getting into this or first time LED purchases to know what to be looking for. I can admit, I just don't know anymore. When I think LED I constantly keep thinking Radion since I figure Ecotech have the most to lose if their product isn't up to snuff. But that is not really a good reason to make the decision off of. For example everyone knows with MH....10k produces growth with some color, 20k produces color with some growth, 14k is the "sweet spot" where you get a bit of both. But that is MH logic....was pretty simple. Or at least that is my opinion.

The other thing is if you aren't running them at 100% then doesn't that just defeat the purchase of the unit? I mean if you pick up Radion's at $500+ but only run them at 40% with a PAR of 260 at 12 inches....couldn't you have saved $200+ and picked up a cheaper unit that will hit the same readings at 100%? I mean yeah....the Radion will give you the ability to hike it up but how many do?

This thread is not meant to be a product promotion or bashing thread BTW.

It's OVERWHELMING for someone who doesn't know anything about LEDs. Especially if you have a tank set up running a different light set up. I could have bought one radion light but I went with 3 cheaper units for the same price, not knowing if they would grow coral or not. Now I can't speak on which is better... Radion or my cheap programable full spectrum 120w LEDs as I clearly went the cheap route, but I couldn't complain one bit.

Not running at 100% doesn't defeat the purchase of the units, most units use 3w diodes but run them at 2w for longevity. The way I look at it is, i payed 600 for all 3 units and I "shouldn't" have to replace them for years to come, nor do I have to worry about heat , and I don't have to change out the bulbs every 6-8 months...

But you having a tank that's been ran by MH's for years, I wouldn't even know how to begin the transition over. Your whole tank would have to be acclimated to the lights.

 

[Reefrookie220]

Par reading in my tank won't mean Jack for the same light on your tank, even if I put my light in the mail and tested it on your tank the readings wouldn't be consistent, there are sooooo many variables. That's why they test in air.

 

[ca2or]

Par reading in my tank won't mean Jack for the same light on your tank, even if I put my light in the mail and tested it on your tank the readings wouldn't be consistent, there are sooooo many variables. That's why they test in air.

Exactly. That is exactly what I read

 

[BryanS4]

I don't believe for one second that the numbers I posted above from the OR website are air readings. I'll try and get my hands on our clubs par meter the next few days and take some air readings on my LEDs.

Also attached is another example of par readings taken under water from a well known company.

 

[shadow1013]

I'm new to the hobby and was looking at lighting. I did see, cannot remember what it is now, but someone made two frags of a few of their corals and put them under LEDs and either MH or T5 and let them grow for a month. I believe the growth different was so similar that it was hard to choose a "winner".

Why I decided to go with LEDs was first size. I have a two nano tanks and it seems like a waste to have only half the bulbs over the tank. The second was price to replace. Those bulbs are pricey to replace and a good LED should last at least 5 years, you'll most likely want to upgrade to the new thing before they die. The third was heat. LEDs don't really head up the tank so no need for a chiller.

I'm also a fan of technology so I maybe a bit bias.

 

[Harold Green]

I went to led's when I set up my 210 last year. It has a mix of diy crees and cheap led imports. I didn't see any real growth at 450 watts. I added more fixtures pushing the wattage up to nearly 1000 and growth really picked up. I'm running at close to 20% white and 80% blue. I still have to be careful when adding new corals as the led's will bleach some out rapidly. The sand bed works for new acros but some corals need a bit of shade to flourish in my tank. I can pretty well judge light by the orange and green rock anemones in the tank. If the light is too bright they retreat into the rocks. If perfect they will stretch out up high on the rocks, and if low light they will move around looking for better light.

 

[ca2or]

See my trouble is that LED's don't provide heat which forces me to run a heater and I'd rather have to run a chiller than a heater because I've had heaters fail and friends had heaters fail and lost everything.

I haven't had a heater in years thanks to mh

 

[jduck]

Controller of some sort would solve failed heater issue.

 

[ca2or]

I went to led's when I set up my 210 last year. It has a mix of diy crees and cheap led imports. I didn't see any real growth at 450 watts. I added more fixtures pushing the wattage up to nearly 1000 and growth really picked up. I'm running at close to 20% white and 80% blue. I still have to be careful when adding new corals as the led's will bleach some out rapidly. The sand bed works for new acros but some corals need a bit of shade to flourish in my tank. I can pretty well judge light by the orange and green rock anemones in the tank. If the light is too bright they retreat into the rocks. If perfect they will stretch out up high on the rocks, and if low light they will move around looking for better light.

At 1000w wouldn't MH have becomr a viable option? If I find myself considering 400w or more I will fire up my MH's.

 

[tigerdragon]

I run reef radiance leds in particular the lumentek series. I used an apogee meter to test par running whites at 35% blues at 80%. Measurements done on a 90 gal 24" deep tank i got over 400 par ar water line mid tank around 250 par sb 120. The main diff i believe with led is the focus of the light vs t5 or halide. If you were to focus those two light similiar to led i believe you would cut wattage needed way down but because their light is so spread out they need to run a much higher wattage.

 

[dbrewsky]

There is a lot of mis information about the led and it seems like the biggest determination in success in making the switch led from mh or t5 comes in these two areas:

1. par values
2. light spread

I have had some difficulty in making this transition as my previous tanks were lit by radiums. these are my findings after extensive research and personal experience.


Par values- par needs to be measured on your tank period. People claim that leds are super intense, which they definently can be. However the par values may not be as high as the current mh setup you are running. It is imperative that par be measured before making the swap and then to determine what the led are actually producing in your situation. I was having issues that could not be explained until I finally got a hold of a par meter and determined my kessils were not nearly as strong as they are reported to be. Only after lowering my lights significantly and increasing output to 100% am I seeing par numbers that are more acceptable for my needs.

light spread- even though leds and mh are considered point source lights, the reflectors on your mh are very efficient in dispersing the light over a greater foot print, while retaining the intensity. Leds are unable to achieve this dispersion so you will need more light units per tank foot print compared to your existing mh setup to get the same spread.

Ultimately par is par- it doesn't matter what technology produces it as long as the spectrum the lights are producing is appropriate for the needs of coral.