Question on Refugium

[Raymond Gathright]

Hello all. I'm not exactly a newbe. I've had a 40 gallon fish only tank for the last 5 years or so... Perhaps I am a newbe, at that ;-) I have kept up with R2R for some time, though mostly as a lurker, trying to learn.
I've upgraded my 40 gallon to a 75 gallon, with the intention of getting into reefing. The 40 will be turned into a S0uth American cenote tank.
All my numbers in the 75 look good except for my nitrates, which have sat at 40ppm. I live in a smallish town 60 miles east of Dallas, so the local Petco is the best I can do locally. They have an "expert" there suggested vodka dosing, but this doesn't seem to have helped a lot, though it has brought it down from around 60ppm two weeks ago.
I really don't like the idea of dumping a bunch of vodka in my tank every day. Right now I'm putting in 6m.m. in the morning and 7 at night. I also really can't afford to drop another three to four hundred dollars on a sump, plus the pump. This all before I put fish one in.
I started researching refugiums, and thought about doing a very simple traditional one. One that almost acts like a smaller display tank with lots of vegetation in it. That brings me to my question.
My thoughts are to use either a 20 or 29 gallon, place a layer of sand, some live rock rubble, macro algae, perhaps my proteen skimmer and heater and the intake and outflow pumps. That's it. No baffles, no nothing. I may run the intake along the side of the tank, cap it off and drill 1/8" holes at 1" intervals to create a current in the refugium. Then add some copepods, maybe some crabs and some clown gobies.
Thoughts? I've heard 20% of the tank is need, which the 20 would cover. Do I need to go up to a 29?
Also, I've seen anything from "All you need is a 1" layer of sand, if any," to "the deeper the sand bed the better." What's the answer of the sand? None, or fill the tank?
About how much rubble do I need?
What would everyone recommend as far as micro. Kato? Remember, this is going to be setting where people can see it; though primarily in the evenings. Is there something pretty, but that isn't prone to going sexual on me.
Thanks in advance, Raymond

 

[bios]

Your tank is very young, so algae issue is normal at this step
And every reef tank has passed through this step during cycle
My suggestion is to not dose vodka but live phytoplankton
That will also feed azooxantellate animals you have
The Refugium will be very good resource for your tank
But other way for its low water movement I will suggest to not use a deep sand bed , but 3 / 4 cm of sand max
Good rodophyta is best as a macro but also chaeto is ok
At last take eyes on which kind of algae will grow in your tank in the future and take attention on weed ones
take also attention to nitrates something is wrong if they are so high
Probably you feed too much

 

[Bradley Crocker]

How often do you do water changes? What % would you say is being replaced?

 

[Bradley Crocker]

And +1 to not carbon dosing a new system. There's more effective ways to reduce nitrate.

 

[lion king]

Chaeto is by far the best and easiest for nutrient uptake, but not the most attractive for display. Red and green gracilaria is a nice macro that won't go sexual on you and looks pretty nice, there are several varieties. I think a 20g will be fine for a 75g.

 

[Raymond Gathright]

Thanks for replying...
I guess I should've went with my gut, and what I had read for the last several years instead of listening to the guy at Petco. I knew that Vodka dosing could work, but I just had a bad feeling that this wasn't how I needed to tackle this particular problem at this time. He was just adamant that he had seen it work wonders. Live and learn. At least I don't have any fish or corals, other than about 20 snails. So hopefully I haven't hurt anything.
I actually talked to a reefer at a large LFS in Dallas that I go to occasionally, and he liked my idea. He gave me a few pointers, and I'll be starting the build in a day or two. I'm thinking about a 1/2" sand bed or miracle mud, some macro algae and live rock. I'll load the refugium and display with copapods and let nature take its course. Who knows, maybe one day I'll even put a few mangroves in...
As far as water changes, I've been doing at least 10% weekly. I will say that the nitrates in my 40 where 160 plus. My fish had died, the parameters where good at the time, I had got very ill and taking care of the tank became less of a priority for several months. After I initially set the 75 up and let the tank cycle everything was good with the exception of the nitrates. They initially came down to 60 with the water change, but have held at 40 since.
I've thought about doing a 20 to 30% water change, but I'm afraid I'll screw the cycle all up??? Even at that, I still think the best route is a refugium of some sort.

 

[lion king]

Vodka dosing does work and there's nothing wrong with that method; you likely haven't screwed anything up. I use nopox on 2 tanks, which is similar to vodka dosing. I have a refugium on 1, and an algae reactor on another. They all work. I'm working on a stand alone 40 breeder macro tank, I've found a new interest in macros, so a display refugium is a fun project.

 

[FishGuyBri]

Vodka dosing does work and there's nothing wrong with that method; you likely haven't screwed anything up. I use nopox on 2 tanks, which is similar to vodka dosing. I have a refugium on 1, and an algae reactor on another. They all work. I'm working on a stand alone 40 breeder macro tank, I've found a new interest in macros, so a display refugium is a fun project.

Am I the only one who kills algae in the refugium? Not to hijack the thread, but I can't keep the stuff alive for more than two weeks. Chaeto. I'm guessing my LEDs aren't strong enough.

 

[Bradley Crocker]

The thing about advice in this hobby is that the vast majority of it is purely anecdotal. What works for you may or may not work for someone else, and vice versa. Don't fault the guy at petco. IMO, the fact that he knew of carbon dosing may put him above the stereotype of big box pet store employees' knowledge (or lack thereof).

 

[Bradley Crocker]

Am I the only one who kills algae in the refugium? Not to hijack the thread, but I can't keep the stuff alive for more than two weeks. Chaeto. I'm guessing my LEDs aren't strong enough.

What light are you using? It could be too strong.

 

[jaws789832]

A couple of things in my limited experience. A display refugium is a lot of work so be prepared. If the macro's grow you will have to keep trimming and pruning to keep it nice and you will still get nuisance algae growing and that's where it really gets fun. Just think of it like weeds growing in a garden, if you don't keep up with it they will overtake it. I had one set up for a little over a year and found it was more work than my Main tank so I shut er down and went for a regular ole refugium. I also don't think you will be able to do this without some sort of baffle. The return pump and skimmer will get clogged with any loose piece of macro, plus skimmers run at a certain water level and all your evaporation is going to happen in the sump/refugium so there will be a fluctuation causing your skimmer to either not produce or produce too much depending on the water level (that is if you use an in tank skimmer)

 

[Bradley Crocker]

Thanks for replying...
I guess I should've went with my gut, and what I had read for the last several years instead of listening to the guy at Petco. I knew that Vodka dosing could work, but I just had a bad feeling that this wasn't how I needed to tackle this particular problem at this time. He was just adamant that he had seen it work wonders. Live and learn. At least I don't have any fish or corals, other than about 20 snails. So hopefully I haven't hurt anything.
I actually talked to a reefer at a large LFS in Dallas that I go to occasionally, and he liked my idea. He gave me a few pointers, and I'll be starting the build in a day or two. I'm thinking about a 1/2" sand bed or miracle mud, some macro algae and live rock. I'll load the refugium and display with copapods and let nature take its course. Who knows, maybe one day I'll even put a few mangroves in...
As far as water changes, I've been doing at least 10% weekly. I will say that the nitrates in my 40 where 160 plus. My fish had died, the parameters where good at the time, I had got very ill and taking care of the tank became less of a priority for several months. After I initially set the 75 up and let the tank cycle everything was good with the exception of the nitrates. They initially came down to 60 with the water change, but have held at 40 since.
I've thought about doing a 20 to 30% water change, but I'm afraid I'll screw the cycle all up??? Even at that, I still think the best route is a refugium of some sort.

Do you feed the system at all? 10% weekly WC's is usually sufficient, but maybe try upping to 15-20% for a week or two just to see how it affects no3's.

Normally I would say that a typical refugium in a typical system won't do much, if any, good for lowering po4/no3. But in your case it might, since a 20 gal will be over 1/4 of the display volume.

And do some research on deep sand beds before you make up your mind. They have their place/uses, and a refugium can definitely be one. I had one in a 110 gal display with good results. If you decide to do one, it needs to be at least 6" deep though. Don't let anyone talk you into the middle ground (2-5").

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

You'll definetly need a baffled sump if you're planning on having anything but a refugium and return pump... I would stop the vodka dosing, as an OD can easily prove deadly. Do you know the source of your nutrients? Knowing this is the best way to combat algae. How often/how much are you feeding? To cut down on excess nutrients, I always avoid dumping in the juices left over from thawing frozen (as its pure phosphates and nitrates) by feeding with tweezers.

 

[Raymond Gathright]

The thing about advice in this hobby is that the vast majority of it is purely anecdotal. What works for you may or may not work for someone else, and vice versa. Don't fault the guy at petco. IMO, the fact that he knew of carbon dosing may put him above the stereotype of big box pet store employees' knowledge (or lack thereof).

I guess I've been kind of hard on the guy. I actually like him, and he's been a lot of help over all. I had a bad run in with one of the employees who forgot that I am a customer last night. I'm fairly hard to aggravate and I'm still a little ticked off. I'm not fond of being ignored, especially after spending what I have to get this set up, and with a cart approaching another $100 to start on this. Unfortunately, it's not the first time its happened with this person.
I still felt like I should have gone with the refugium, but was trying to save some money... I don't know why, I'm a cheap fart... I can I afford a DIY. I also enjoy the challenge. I could probably afford a store bought one, truth be told. I'm just more aggravated at myself for not going with my gut and building one from the start.

 

[Raymond Gathright]

Do you feed the system at all? 10% weekly WC's is usually sufficient, but maybe try upping to 15-20% for a week or two just to see how it affects no3's.

Normally I would say that a typical refugium in a typical system won't do much, if any, good for lowering po4/no3. But in your case it might, since a 20 gal will be over 1/4 of the display volume.

And do some research on deep sand beds before you make up your mind. They have their place/uses, and a refugium can definitely be one. I had one in a 110 gal display with good results. If you decide to do one, it needs to be at least 6" deep though. Don't let anyone talk you into the middle ground (2-5").

Nothing right now... Nothing to feed. I've got a few snails, but they're in there just to keep the algae at bay.

 

[Bradley Crocker]

Nothing right now... Nothing to feed. I've got a few snails, but they're in there just to keep the algae at bay.

In that case, a couple things come to mind. What are you using for source water. Another possibility is your rock could still be curing. Did you use live rock? Continue with your wc's, maybe increase them for a short time.

It's definitely not too late to add a refugium. For your case, I would suggest searching for remote refugium for plumbing ideas and seahorse systems for the display (since yours won't be crammed wall to wall with algae). The seahorse systems run on lower flow and typically have decorative macro algae instead of corals.

Some refugium/dsb reading material if you're interested. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

 

[Raymond Gathright]

In that case, a couple things come to mind. What are you using for source water. Another possibility is your rock could still be curing. Did you use live rock? Continue with your wc's, maybe increase them for a short time.

It's definitely not too late to add a refugium. For your case, I would suggest searching for remote refugium for plumbing ideas and seahorse systems for the display (since yours won't be crammed wall to wall with algae). The seahorse systems run on lower flow and typically have decorative macro algae instead of corals.

Some refugium/dsb reading material if you're interested. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

Most of the rock came from the 40 gallon, which was set up for about 5 years. I've got about 80 or 90lbs in there now.
That said, up until about 2 months ago it sat up for about 4 months. I'd add some RO to keep the levels up everyone in a while, but no water changes. I think it's just going to take time to get things settled down, but I still think I need to do a fuge.
I'm torn as to which type right now. I'm liking the idea of an open top, with some mangroves in the back and macro up front. Maybe build a deep sand bed box in the back for the mangroves, a thin layer in front with macro algae and copepods and starfish. Then run a slow flow. I'll take look at the link. Thanks! Raymond

 

[Bradley Crocker]

Most of the rock came from the 40 gallon, which was set up for about 5 years. I've got about 80 or 90lbs in there now.
That said, up until about 2 months ago it sat up for about 4 months. I'd add some RO to keep the levels up everyone in a while, but no water changes. I think it's just going to take time to get things settled down, but I still think I need to do a fuge.
I'm torn as to which type right now. I'm liking the idea of an open top, with some mangroves in the back and macro up front. Maybe build a deep sand bed box in the back for the mangroves, a thin layer in front with macro algae and copepods and starfish. Then run a slow flow. I'll take look at the link. Thanks! Raymond

The nitrate could be from some residual die off on the rock. If so, it'll clear up in time with some good maintenance habits.

I have always loved wetwebmedia. There are definitely more up to date articles out there, but Fenner and his crew have compiled an impressive collection over the last few decades.

Good luck with the fuge! Make a build thread when you start, tag me and I'll definitely come along for the ride.

 

[Raymond Gathright]

The nitrate could be from some residual die off on the rock. If so, it'll clear up in time with some good maintenance habits.

I have always loved wetwebmedia. There are definitely more up to date articles out there, but Fenner and his crew have compiled an impressive collection over the last few decades.

Good luck with the fuge! Make a build thread when you start, tag me and I'll definitely come along for the ride.

Will do!

 

[Devaji]

how about a simple ATS? you can do a upflow ATS for a few bucks under 50ish or better yet a water fall. depending on how fancy you want to make it depends on the price. I would say IMHO mico algae is better than macro algae at export. just an idea.

I have an upflow on my 90 its going good except the air holes need to be cleaned often...in the process of designing a water fall ATS.