Questions about 250 watt Radiums with t5 supplements

[mrpizzaface]

I am having an 84"x27"x27" display fabricated. The tank will have a canopy. Trying to make final determinations on lighting. I thought I had settled on using two Aquatic Life Hybrids with Radion G30 pros, but I really love the look and simplicity of the Radium t5 combination.
I have a few questions regarding the MH t5 setup?

Will 3 250 watt Radiums run on Hamilton M80 HQI ballasts with 8 39watt t5 (4 blue plus 4 coral plus) bulbs be enough light for a 27" deep tank?

Will the heat produced (inside a canopy) be enough to cause my chiller to run a lot?

Would appropriate venting and fans inside the canopy be enough to evacuate the heat, thus minimizing chiller usage?

If I do go this route, what reflectors should I get?

Would it be reasonable/appropriate/necessary to add actinic LED strips to a set up like this?

 

[mtraylor]

If you ventilate the lights enough you will not need a chiller.

 

[danoo]

I've got somewhat similar setup with a 96" x 36" x 26" deep tank with 4 250watt MHs + 12 T5s + 4 SB light actinic strips. So a little bit more light than what you are talking about, but close enough.

The halides are certainly enough for a 27" deep tank. You'll be able to grow whatever you want at every level of the tank. I use the cabo sun mini reflectors as they are the smallest reflectors I could find which gave me enough room to fit in the rest of the lighting. They do a decent job of covering the 36" width, so I think in your case they'd be fine covering a 27" x 27" area (since you have 3 MHs I'm just thinking of your tank as 3 27" cubes). Though if you went with a larger reflector it would do an even better job, but that would take away space for any supplemental lighting.

My canopy hangs over the tank so there is more air-flow and I have a variety of ventilation fans, but the lights still heat up the tank quite a bit. From the start of the day to the end I get about 3 degrees of heating purely from the lights. I don't consider this a problem so I don't have a chiller (and as a side benefit my heaters basically never turn on), but no matter how much ventilation you have the MHs are going to heat up the water, especially if your canopy is enclosed. I don't think there is any way to give you exact guidance on exactly how much they'll heat up your tank, because there are many factors (height above water, ventilation, lighting schedule, etc) that will change depending on your individual setup.

As for actinic light strips, I personally like them quite a bit. My setup was initially just MH and T5s, but I wasn't quite satisfied with the look of the corals. After I added the LED actinic strips it really added a different dimension of color to the corals, way beyond T5 actinic lights. The T5 actinic lights (or a blue plus kind of light) are sort of like a gentle blue that makes the corals pop a little bit but still in a natural way. The LED actinic strips produce a very "artificial" blue that makes corals absolutely explode in fluorescent colors but it almost is a little too much. The good thing is the MH lights are so much brighter they'll be the dominant color and then the actinic LED just add highlights.

So I'll just say in my situation, I think the halides, T5s and actinic LEDs each add something valuable to the overall lighting profile. The halides do the heavy lifting of providing the light for the corals, the T5s allow me to fine tune the color with bulb selection and provide the nice flat lighting that reaches all areas of the corals, and the actinic LED strips really bring out the fluorescence of the corals. But it does really depend on your eye, and I had to play around with a lot of combinations before I found what I liked.

 

[vanpire]

Even with a canopy, are you going to enclose the top or the back? Leaving those area open will help a lot with removing heat. Also what is the desired tank temp vs room temp? That will also determine how much heat increase in the tank? Is your tank rimless or standard bracing? IME, braced tank hold heat more and longer than a rimless.

I have a 8’ x 2.5’w x 2’h rimless with 3 x 250W radiumMy house temp is 3 degrees lower than my highest desired tank temp. My tank temp rises 2 degrees higher after 10 hours of halides are on.

A few inches lower than your desired height and I also leave 2” below the top of the tank. No problem with SPS frags on the sand bed. Fans runs for a few hours a day in the summer. In the winter, I have to heat the tank. I live in the AZ desert so I have to heat it 4-5 months out of the year. I imagine those in cooler climates would need to heat less.

I am thinking of adding T5s and running the T5s for all 10 hours and halides for about 5 hours. That might be better for my corals and even reduce temp rise to less than 2 degress, especially with fans.

 

[mrpizzaface]

I've got somewhat similar setup with a 96" x 36" x 26" deep tank with 4 250watt MHs + 12 T5s + 4 SB light actinic strips. So a little bit more light than what you are talking about, but close enough.

The halides are certainly enough for a 27" deep tank. You'll be able to grow whatever you want at every level of the tank. I use the cabo sun mini reflectors as they are the smallest reflectors I could find which gave me enough room to fit in the rest of the lighting. They do a decent job of covering the 36" width, so I think in your case they'd be fine covering a 27" x 27" area (since you have 3 MHs I'm just thinking of your tank as 3 27" cubes). Though if you went with a larger reflector it would do an even better job, but that would take away space for any supplemental lighting.

My canopy hangs over the tank so there is more air-flow and I have a variety of ventilation fans, but the lights still heat up the tank quite a bit. From the start of the day to the end I get about 3 degrees of heating purely from the lights. I don't consider this a problem so I don't have a chiller (and as a side benefit my heaters basically never turn on), but no matter how much ventilation you have the MHs are going to heat up the water, especially if your canopy is enclosed. I don't think there is any way to give you exact guidance on exactly how much they'll heat up your tank, because there are many factors (height above water, ventilation, lighting schedule, etc) that will change depending on your individual setup.

As for actinic light strips, I personally like them quite a bit. My setup was initially just MH and T5s, but I wasn't quite satisfied with the look of the corals. After I added the LED actinic strips it really added a different dimension of color to the corals, way beyond T5 actinic lights. The T5 actinic lights (or a blue plus kind of light) are sort of like a gentle blue that makes the corals pop a little bit but still in a natural way. The LED actinic strips produce a very "artificial" blue that makes corals absolutely explode in fluorescent colors but it almost is a little too much. The good thing is the MH lights are so much brighter they'll be the dominant color and then the actinic LED just add highlights.

So I'll just say in my situation, I think the halides, T5s and actinic LEDs each add something valuable to the overall lighting profile. The halides do the heavy lifting of providing the light for the corals, the T5s allow me to fine tune the color with bulb selection and provide the nice flat lighting that reaches all areas of the corals, and the actinic LED strips really bring out the fluorescence of the corals. But it does really depend on your eye, and I had to play around with a lot of combinations before I found what I liked.

Wow thanks for such a thorough response. You answered all of my questions.

 

[mrpizzaface]

Even with a canopy, are you going to enclose the top or the back? Leaving those area open will help a lot with removing heat. Also what is the desired tank temp vs room temp? That will also determine how much heat increase in the tank? Is your tank rimless or standard bracing? IME, braced tank hold heat more and longer than a rimless.

I have a 8’ x 2.5’w x 2’h rimless with 3 x 250W radiumMy house temp is 3 degrees lower than my highest desired tank temp. My tank temp rises 2 degrees higher after 10 hours of halides are on.

A few inches lower than your desired height and I also leave 2” below the top of the tank. No problem with SPS frags on the sand bed. Fans runs for a few hours a day in the summer. In the winter, I have to heat the tank. I live in the AZ desert so I have to heat it 4-5 months out of the year. I imagine those in cooler climates would need to heat less.

I am thinking of adding T5s and running the T5s for all 10 hours and halides for about 5 hours. That might be better for my corals and even reduce temp rise to less than 2 degress, especially with fans.

I will likely have sections of the top of the canopy open. The tank will be against the wall, so will the back of the canopy. I keep my house fairly cool. In the summer probably around 70, and in the winter probably around 68. The tank will be euro braced. I appreciate your insights, and am inclined to think the added heat will be manageable, and perhaps even welcome in the cooler months.

 

[JDtimk]

Trying to make final determinations on lighting. I thought I had settled on using two Aquatic Life Hybrids with Radion G30 pros, but I really love the look and simplicity of the Radium t5 combination.

So have you decided on MH versus LED or are you still deciding? If you are still deciding I will throw in my experience running both MH with VHO or t5 and then running all radion pros.
Both light systems are awesome at growing coral. period. no debate for me on that point.
The cost of bulb replacement got to be an issue for me eventually. After a few years of replacing bulbs, every time it came to order bulbs the sticker shock set in lol. I started to calculate how many LED units I could have purchased by now and started to feel like I was wasting money, lol. Not that it really was a waste, but it felt like it at least. I will leave the LED vs MH t5 combo discussion alone beyond that point. Just saying if you haven't calculated the cost of bulb replacement and electricity costs into your decision, it's worth considering.

 

[mrpizzaface]

So have you decided on MH versus LED or are you still deciding? If you are still deciding I will throw in my experience running both MH with VHO or t5 and then running all radion pros.
Both light systems are awesome at growing coral. period. no debate for me on that point.
The cost of bulb replacement got to be an issue for me eventually. After a few years of replacing bulbs, every time it came to order bulbs the sticker shock set in lol. I started to calculate how many LED units I could have purchased by now and started to feel like I was wasting money, lol. Not that it really was a waste, but it felt like it at least. I will leave the LED vs MH t5 combo discussion alone beyond that point. Just saying if you haven't calculated the cost of bulb replacement and electricity costs into your decision, it's worth considering.

I haven’t decided yet. I already have the Radions so I am leaning in that direction. I hadn’t really thought to much about the bulb replacement cost, but it’s probably worth consideration. As far as wattage is concerned I didn’t really find them too far apart in terms of power usage, at least not enough to sway me towards LEDs.
The foolproof nature of the MH t5 combo is very alluring.

 

[jda]

I have almost the same tank... 72x27x27. I use 20k Radiums on LumenBrite Mini (16" octagon one) on m80. This setup has massive PAR everywhere with over 700 at the top and the entire sandbed at 300+. I use VHO UVL Super Actinics on it instead of T5s because they come in 6' length and I can replace 2 bulbs instead of 6 or 8... and the bulbs last longer. I just run the VHOs before and after the MH - MH are on for 6 hours and the VHO on for 2-3 hours before and after... you can barely see the VHOs with the Radiums lit, so why waste 320 watts?

I have a Vornado that blows into the hood and I don't need a chiller at all (I am in Colorado and evap cooling is powerful here with humidity in the 20s or 30s in the summer). Your chiller might run a bit on a super hot day, but the fans can do the lion's share of the work. In the winter, my heaters are on about an hour after the Mh go off. I am not saying that the MH produce no heat, but it is usually manageable unless you live in a desert or some areas of Florida and you might even like it in the winter months. Look at powerful fans, not computer fans - the Vornado that I use is about 300 CFM on low (winter setting) and about 750 on hight (July setting).

I was looking at 9-10 Gen 4 XR 30s to cover this same area and do it as well as the MH would (similar to what Dr. Joshi does where he replaced 3x MH with 10 Radions) - you can buy a lot of bulbs for that. Factor in about a 5 year lifespan with a LED fixture performing a high-level job. The cost argument just does not bear out too much once you really dig in and also figure out that fixtures have a lifespan too. I would make your choice based on performance.

As for the actinic LED strips, that is totally personal. The coral will not need them at all - nor the T5s... but if you like the aesthetic, then a Reefbrite XHO might be cool.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

i have a 6' geisemman spectra which houses three single end 250 radium bulbs, four 6' t5ho bulbs and two reef brite xho actinic strips on each side. It was a sizable outlay of cash but the light is ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. It looks slick, and the light is soooo even and powerful, at 10" below the water I have 300-320 par just about everywhere in the tank where I can put corals.

I live in oregon so our average daily temperature is pretty mild. I never have to run a chiller, I do have a desk fan blowing on my sump/fuge in the summer (it comes on maybe 30 times the whole summer). I would definately have some fans in a canopy if you are going to enclose them, and for sure have a space between canopy and tank. Not a must, but I would certainly do that.

have any fans in your canopy as exhaust only, if you start blowing fans on the lights themselves then hot air is going to start crossing over the surface of your water and ...well, you can figure the rest out.

My lights have 4 cycles through the day...
1. oooh, waking up.... LED on dimmer
2. Even, chill and colorful.... LED and T5.
3. Summer in the tropics. Crisp brite MH, and T5 REAL shimmer, not disco
4. WOW, THAT IS COOL. LED only in a dark house.

 

[mrpizzaface]

I have almost the same tank... 72x27x27. I use 20k Radiums on LumenBrite Mini (16" octagon one) on m80. This setup has massive PAR everywhere with over 700 at the top and the entire sandbed at 300+. I use VHO UVL Super Actinics on it instead of T5s because they come in 6' length and I can replace 2 bulbs instead of 6 or 8... and the bulbs last longer. I just run the VHOs before and after the MH - MH are on for 6 hours and the VHO on for 2-3 hours before and after... you can barely see the VHOs with the Radiums lit, so why waste 320 watts?

I have a Vornado that blows into the hood and I don't need a chiller at all (I am in Colorado and evap cooling is powerful here with humidity in the 20s or 30s in the summer). Your chiller might run a bit on a super hot day, but the fans can do the lion's share of the work. In the winter, my heaters are on about an hour after the Mh go off. I am not saying that the MH produce no heat, but it is usually manageable unless you live in a desert or some areas of Florida and you might even like it in the winter months. Look at powerful fans, not computer fans - the Vornado that I use is about 300 CFM on low (winter setting) and about 750 on hight (July setting).

I was looking at 9-10 Gen 4 XR 30s to cover this same area and do it as well as the MH would (similar to what Dr. Joshi does where he replaced 3x MH with 10 Radions) - you can buy a lot of bulbs for that. Factor in about a 5 year lifespan with a LED fixture performing a high-level job. The cost argument just does not bear out too much once you really dig in and also figure out that fixtures have a lifespan too. I would make your choice based on performance.

As for the actinic LED strips, that is totally personal. The coral will not need them at all - nor the T5s... but if you like the aesthetic, then a Reefbrite XHO might be cool.

Yeah, once I really started looking at the numbers there didn't seem to be much of a savings at all using LEDs (at least in my case). How is your Vornado installed? I like the idea of using a larger fan, but am working within pretty tight aesthetic restraints, and not sure how I would implement.

 

[mrpizzaface]

i have a 6' geisemman spectra which houses three single end 250 radium bulbs, four 6' t5ho bulbs and two reef brite xho actinic strips on each side. It was a sizable outlay of cash but the light is ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. It looks slick, and the light is soooo even and powerful, at 10" below the water I have 300-320 par just about everywhere in the tank where I can put corals.

I live in oregon so our average daily temperature is pretty mild. I never have to run a chiller, I do have a desk fan blowing on my sump/fuge in the summer (it comes on maybe 30 times the whole summer). I would definately have some fans in a canopy if you are going to enclose them, and for sure have a space between canopy and tank. Not a must, but I would certainly do that.

have any fans in your canopy as exhaust only, if you start blowing fans on the lights themselves then hot air is going to start crossing over the surface of your water and ...well, you can figure the rest out.

My lights have 4 cycles through the day...
1. oooh, waking up.... LED on dimmer
2. Even, chill and colorful.... LED and T5.
3. Summer in the tropics. Crisp brite MH, and T5 REAL shimmer, not disco
4. WOW, THAT IS COOL. LED only in a dark house.

It was seeing s Giesemann Spectra over someones tank, that has me thinking about Metal Halide. It really is a beautiful fixture. If I was going open top, I have no doubt that I would use the Spectra.

 

[jda]

I have the vornado shoved into one of the rear corners inside of the hood. It pulls in air right behind there and then blows across the top. I do leave the front off of the hood most of the time since this particular tank is in a storage room for now.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I'll second (and third) opinions expressed previously - more than enough light. I had to run a chiller - that was over the tank I had in Atlanta years ago.

 

[hart24601]

I haven’t decided yet. I already have the Radions so I am leaning in that direction. I hadn’t really thought to much about the bulb replacement cost, but it’s probably worth consideration. As far as wattage is concerned I didn’t really find them too far apart in terms of power usage, at least not enough to sway me towards LEDs.
The foolproof nature of the MH t5 combo is very alluring.

If you already have the radions I wouldn't change it! Personally I feel it would be a down grade to swap those out. I flat out will not run MH now, despite some vocal advocates I just don’t prefer it. I don’t think one can beat T5/LED although I prefer LED only in a large panel like Orphek these days.