Questions about sulfate testing, sulfate overdose, and cloudy kalk

Adam Obenauf

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So about a year ago I switched over to BRS two part. Which includes a half gallon of magnesium chloride and a half gallon of magnesium sulfate to make your own magnesium mix with a 5:3 ratio of MgCl2 to MgSO4 (by volume). So I mixed it up and used it up over the course of 6-9 months. When it was time to make more I found that I had far more MgSO4 than MgCl2 left. So I decided to mix what was left with the reverse ratio rather than order more or waste some of it. So I had a solution that was mostly MgSo4.

Recently I setup a new aquarium. After about a month I checked my levels. Ca and Alk were normal but Mg was at a whopping 800-900 ppm! While I had been dosing CaCl2 and NaCO3 I had not been dosing that much so I wouldn't have thought it would drop that fast (5-7.5ml of each solution per day in a 30 gallon tank, by my math that should only produce a 4 ppm drop in Mg, not 400 ppm). Or perhaps the salt mix had low Mg from the beginning? I used red sea coral pro for those curious. Anyways this had to be corrected immediately. I grabbed my gallon of Mg mix and started dosing 500ml at a time then retesting. Ended up using about half a gallon to bring the Mg up to 1400 ppm.

This was several days ago and none of my corals or fish have shown any sort of reaction. However my brittle star has been barely moving since around the time that I did the Mg dosing. It could be (and likely is) a coincidence since I can't be sure that it started on exactly the same day but it got me thinking that perhaps I overdosing the So4 levels and that is what is causing him trouble. By my math my SO4 levels would have gone up 60% from the dosing. So I looked for some SO4 test kits in case I ever ran into this problem again and needed to confirm it. And to my astonishment, there are none.

Why would this be given that many of us dose it as part of our Mg dosing, it's been shown to be elevated in many ICP/triton results, and it's been shown to be toxic to most marine invertebrates at levels as low as triple NSW? Isn't the old adage supposed to be "don't dose what you can't test"?


I will do a 50% water change this weekend but for now the tank seems fine overall. I'm also surprised on the lack of both test kits and research done on chloride, sodium, and sulfate levels. I for one would like to know how important it really is to keep these major ions in the correct ration, what the acceptable range of levels is, and how it affects marine life outside of this range. But there seems to be no data on any of this. Sure you can correct them a bit with water changes but that's a lot of potentially unnecessary work if we just do more research on the subject not to mention that it can't bring them completely back down to the correct levels without you also lowering salinity (which also lowers levels for everything else we don't test for).

I would love to switch to kalk to minimize the possibility of sodium/chloride/sulfate building up but I cannot get the stuff to settle. It literally takes weeks to settle in RO/DI water (and days in tap water). And the particulates are too fine to filter out without letting them settle. I've tried three different brands (generic ebay, BRS, and Mrs. Wages). I have found that fresh kalk tends to settle reasonably well and sealing it in a truly airtight container extends that but even so within a month or two after buying it it's right back to this behavior. I believe it has to do with moisture in the air causing it to precipitate as CaCO3 while it's still in the container. But after storing it in a dry area, using a double sealed air tight food storage container, and adding a desiccant I don't know what else I can do at this point.... Also I have tried vinegar and that makes it even more cloudy! A lot more in fact. Even when it's brand new it still doesn't mix as fast or as clear as many of the videos I have seen on kalk mixing. Am I doing something wrong? The water is at room temperature neutral PH.

TL:DR: Read the bolded sentences. Thanks in advance.
 
Welcome to Reef2Reef, Adam!

Hobbyist test kits for sulfate and sodium don't exist because these are not easy analytes to test for. If you really want to know your chloride level, the Mohr method is very easy to do and quite precise, but not really appropriate for a hobbyist test kit because the toxicity of one of the reagents, and also the light-sensitivity and staining properties of the other reagent.

While I would usually suspect a testing error for a stated result of a 800-900 PPM Mg level (oh, by the way, which is it?), your approximation of roughly half a gallon of your backwards Mg solution appears to be about right to bring a 30 gallon tank up to 1400 PPM Mg from 800. FWIW, the 5:3 ratio is for the Mg supplement intended to complement Randy's DIY 2-Part in a balanced fashion. For simply raising Mg, there is a different 10:1 ratio (Cl:SO4) that you can read about here. Nonetheless, even if you had used only MgSO4 to raise the Mg from 800 to 1400 PPM in a 30 gallon tank, that would have skewed the SO4 by less than 100% of the NSW level. Consider also that if the Mg in your salt mix was low, then the Cl and SO4 would also be low accordingly, so combining this with the fact that you did not use only MgSO4, the net effect of your correction is likely to have excess SO4 that is more like only about 25% of NSW levels.

I disagree that "...it can't bring them completely back down to the correct levels without you also lowering salinity...." Perhaps in some absolute pedantic sense, but in any practical sense, this is simply not true.
 
By my math my SO4 levels would have gone up 60% from the dosing.
I just noticed this detail. Did you account for the likely reduced SO4 level that naturally follows from a reduced Mg level in your original salt mix? I just re-crunched the numbers, and came up with a 22% excess assuming that (A) the salt mix had only 800 PPM Mg, (B) the salt mix derives all SO4 from MgSO4, and (C) your 60% number is accurate and does not account for the combined effects of (A) and (B).
 
As you suggested, there is very little data on the chloride to sulfate ratio and how far it can shift without concerns. The only real evidence is how much it randomly deviates when folks get data from a test like Triton that gives sulfate. From this it is evident that the ratio is not critical at all, but since folks can generally accomplish it, I'd always strive to keep it roughly near NSW levels.

I'm a bit worried that the low magnesium level might have been testing error, and perhaps now it is higher than you think.

Have you measured your new salt mix?

FWIW, any issue you see might be from impurities rather than the sulfate, or it might even be due to elevated magnesium. Folks do sometimes see some minor issues when boosting magnesium very high to try to treat bryopsis.

I have to get to something else, but we can certainly discuss these issue at length later. :)
 
On the limewater subject, mine settles clear in a day or so in a trash can with no stirring. But if left open to the air, it can stay cloudy from calcium carbonate precipitation.

Anyway, if you have let it settle overnight, I'd use it. There is no problem with getting some calcium carbonate into the tank, and even if it is some small amount of undissolved calcium hydroxide, that is also OK. Just always be sure to add limewater slowly.
 
One of the reasons there is little research on issues like sulfate and chloride is that these do not vary in the ocean, so there is no incentive for scientists to study it since it is not a problem in the ocean the way nutrients or polluting trace metals and such may be.
 
Welcome to Reef2Reef, Adam!

Thank you.

Hobbyist test kits for sulfate and sodium don't exist because these are not easy analytes to test for.

Sodium I am not sure about. Sulfate however test kits do exist for that are widely used and accurate. They just don't operate in the range of saltwater since they are all intended for freshwater use. Sodium you could figure out pretty easily by finding the difference between the salinity and the sum of all of the other ions that we can test for.

If you really want to know your chloride level, the Mohr method is very easy to do and quite precise, but not really appropriate for a hobbyist test kit because the toxicity of one of the reagents, and also the light-sensitivity and staining properties of the other reagent.

I for one do not care about reagent toxicity. I deal with far worse on a daily basis. People think I'm crazy for cleaning everything with 10% HCl solutions but man does it work well!

Also will this method work well in saltwater? I would be concerned about possible reactions with other major anions.

While I would usually suspect a testing error for a stated result of a 800-900 PPM Mg level (oh, by the way, which is it?), your approximation of roughly half a gallon of your backwards Mg solution appears to be about right to bring a 30 gallon tank up to 1400 PPM Mg from 800.

I too assumed it was a testing error at first. But I retested it multiple times with my salifert test kit and I am sure of the results. I went too fast when I was doing the drops because I did not expect it to be that low. That's why I wrote 800-900 due to my uncertainty.

FWIW, the 5:3 ratio is for the Mg supplement intended to complement Randy's DIY 2-Part in a balanced fashion. For simply raising Mg, there is a different 10:1 ratio (Cl:SO4) that you can read about here.

I was curious about that, thanks.

Nonetheless, even if you had used only MgSO4 to raise the Mg from 800 to 1400 PPM in a 30 gallon tank, that would have skewed the SO4 by less than 100% of the NSW level. Consider also that if the Mg in your salt mix was low, then the Cl and SO4 would also be low accordingly, so combining this with the fact that you did not use only MgSO4, the net effect of your correction is likely to have excess SO4 that is more like only about 25% of NSW levels.

Only if that assumption is correct that the salt mix had low Mg and that all of the SO4 was from MgSO4. Both of which are pretty big assumptions. I could prove/disprove this theory if I had a way to test SO4 levels but unfortunately I do not :(.

You would THINK that this must be the case since the alternative of Mg dropping 150x faster than it should would be impossible. However I have seen the behavior in my last tank just with Ca/Alk with no apparent mineral sink to account for it (no precipitation or calcareous organism growth).

I disagree that "...it can't bring them completely back down to the correct levels without you also lowering salinity...." Perhaps in some absolute pedantic sense, but in any practical sense, this is simply not true.

As someone obsesses with STEM I am a pedant by nature of my work :P. Also I hate water changes and only do them when absolutely necessary. My dream is that one day we will understand the chemistry of coral uptake and seawater well enough that water changes will become counterproductive. Many companies already claim to do this (e.g. triton) with promising results but none will release enough data to make their testing replicable.

Unfortunately that's all I have time for now. I'll response to the rest of the posts later tonight.
 
The Mohr method works wonderfully for seawater, but does also include bromide in the result, which will only introduce about 0.15% error at NSW levels.

It is reasonable to assume that MgSO4 is the sole source for SO4 in commercial salt mixes, since the alternative source, Na2SO4, is generally more expensive.
 
As you suggested, there is very little data on the chloride to sulfate ratio and how far it can shift without concerns. The only real evidence is how much it randomly deviates when folks get data from a test like Triton that gives sulfate. From this it is evident that the ratio is not critical at all, but since folks can generally accomplish it, I'd always strive to keep it roughly near NSW levels.

What I really want to know is the chemical importance of sulfate in seawater, if any. Take a FOWLR tank for example. We already know that K, Ca, and Mg aren't needed by fish. But could you make a salt mix from just NaCl and Na(HCO3)2 with the correct salinity and run a fowlr tank without issue? In other words does the presence of sulfate actually effect the fish in some way? If that's the case then why/how?

None of the results I've seen deviate enough from NSW levels to really answer those sorts of questions.

I'm a bit worried that the low magnesium level might have been testing error, and perhaps now it is higher than you think.

Possible, but unlikely. I tested it twice with my salifert test kit. It has never failed me before and the color change is very clear.

Have you measured your new salt mix?

Nope. I will do that during my water change this weekend and report back with the results.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
One of the reasons there is little research on issues like sulfate and chloride is that these do not vary in the ocean, so there is no incentive for scientists to study it since it is not a problem in the ocean the way nutrients or polluting trace metals and such may be.

I would say there is a huge incentive given it's importance to aquariums and fish farms. But I guess that makes some sense.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
On the limewater subject, mine settles clear in a day or so in a trash can with no stirring. But if left open to the air, it can stay cloudy from calcium carbonate precipitation.

For me it makes no difference if it is sealed or not after mixing since it quickly builds up a protective CaCO3 layer at the top. Despite the presence of this layer the solution underneath is still cloudy. I have also noticed that this CaCO3 film isn't as thick when using older Kalk. Which seems to support the idea that it is losing potency over time in storage. Something which I must find a way to resolve.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Anyway, if you have let it settle overnight, I'd use it. There is no problem with getting some calcium carbonate into the tank, and even if it is some small amount of undissolved calcium hydroxide, that is also OK. Just always be sure to add limewater slowly.

Unfortunately I suspect this may have been the cause of my previously mentioned Ca/Alk issue with the previous tank. I think the small CaCO3 crystals from the cloudy kalk combined with the high PH may have encouraged CaCO3 crystals to grow in the water column and end up actually depleting more Ca/Alk than it replenished. I don't know, what do you think?

I think I should explain a bit about myself at this point so that you can better understand where I'm coming from with these. My main purpose in running reef tanks has been very different from the majority of aquarists. I do it for the science, not appearances. To me it is an excellent tool for better understanding marine biology, chemistry, etc. And as such I am more curious about why certain things happen in a different way for my system than everyone else's (the cloudy kalk for example) and am not necessarily so concerned with the end result.
 
FWIW, many of these are interesting questions that I do not know the answer to (and which may it be known).

Fish can use sulfate, and it also gets reduced by bacteria in their GI tract:

http://aem.asm.org/content/68/3/1374.full

but I do not really know if marine fish need it, or need so much of it in the water.

Lots of other organisms need it, however, and I'm not sure what implications there may be to changing its concentration significantly up or down. Photosynthetic organisms may use it for most of the sulfur requirements, for example.

As to cost, I'm not sure it costs anything to put it into a salt mix relative to chloride since, I think, magnesium sulfate is cheaper than magnesium chloride, so if you know you want magnesium, sulfate may come free. :)
 
Unfortunately I suspect this may have been the cause of my previously mentioned Ca/Alk issue with the previous tank. I think the small CaCO3 crystals from the cloudy kalk combined with the high PH may have encouraged CaCO3 crystals to grow in the water column and end up actually depleting more Ca/Alk than it replenished. I don't know, what do you think?
.

That's possible. Was the limewater ever clear? Maybe there is very fine calcium carbonate already in the material you were using before you dissolved it.
 
A quick update. Retested Mg today after a few days and it has not dropped yet. This adds evidence that it was caused by low Mg in the salt mix.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
That's possible. Was the limewater ever clear?

Only when made with brand new Ca(OH)2 powder.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Maybe there is very fine calcium carbonate already in the material you were using before you dissolved it.

That's what I was thinking when I posted earlier about moisture getting in as an explanation for why this problem seems to progress more slowly when the Ca(OH)2 is stored in an airtight container.
 
Any potential explanation as to why adding vinegar (45ml per gallon) to the water before adding the kalk causes the kalk to be extra cloudy? Even after a few days in an unagitated airtight container it's still milky white. According to your article on kalk the reverse should happen.
 
Any potential explanation as to why adding vinegar (45ml per gallon) to the water before adding the kalk causes the kalk to be extra cloudy? Even after a few days in an unagitated airtight container it's still milky white. According to your article on kalk the reverse should happen.

If you are still saturating the limewater with excess calcium carbonate solids (3 tsp per gallon or more), there will still be solids in the water.

I'm not sure exactly why you see slower settling, but it may have to do with the particle sizes formed/remaining, or even more obscure effects relating the the acetate binding to the surface of the particles impacting the surface charge and how the particles interact with one another.
 
I'm actually using a 1/4 dose (1/2 tsp per gallon), not anywhere close to saturated. I hooked up a new brs peristaltic doser last night to automate things and see what effect on the tank the slightly cloudy kalk would have. 1 day in and it has already stopped working....:(
 
Another interesting thing to note. Increasing Ca(OH)2 concentration seems to REDUCE cloudiness and causes it to settle faster.
 
I'm actually using a 1/4 dose (1/2 tsp per gallon), not anywhere close to saturated. I hooked up a new brs peristaltic doser last night to automate things and see what effect on the tank the slightly cloudy kalk would have. 1 day in and it has already stopped working....:(

Ah, that might possibly be the problem. Too little calcium hydroxide to prevent bacterial growth.

1/2 teaspoon of calcium hydroxide is about 1.6 grams, or 43 millimoles of hydroxide.

45 ml of vinegar is 2.25 grams of acetic acid, or 37 millimoles of acid.

So you are reasonably close to an equivalence point where the pH may not be high enough (or low enough) to prevent bacterial growth.

So it is possible the cloudiness is bacteria, and that may be why it is very slow to settle since it is not much denser than water.
 
FWIW, even if it is not bacteria, the pH will impact the surface charge on the solid calcium carbonate, calcium hydroxide, and magnesium hydroxide and other solid impurities that may be present, which may impact the settling rate.
 
At about pH 10, calcium carbonate will not have a charge and so may impact settling. This has the charge data vs pH:

http://www.colloidal-dynamics.com/docs/Calcium_Carbonate_Application.pdf

Generally, however, the higher the charge on a particle, the less likely it is to aggregate with other, similar particles. So I'd expect settling to be fastest at pH 10 and lower above and below that.
 

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