Questions about the User Policy
- Thread starter Swine
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SeahorseKeeper
Where's the mysis?
One of the main reasons is that the PM's can be altered and this would make the information inaccurate. Also, PM's and emails are private correspondence that are meant to be private between the members involved. Finally, it is part of the Terms of Service that each member agrees to when they join the forum.
Swine
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the reply SeahorseKeeper,
Ok I can almost understand about the editing part, I didnt even think about that. But that is only if you show a quote you replied to. You can show the exact reply with the time stamp and they cannot be edited in a screen shot. Same goes for emails. It would also be easy to add a feature that can quote messages in a way you are not able to edit but I understand that would be seen as too much work.
Private correspondence: That is like saying you can't use a text message you received from someone threatening your life in court. I don't buy this one.
Part of the Terms of Service: I understand that I accepted those terms but I am not suggesting how they can be improved. The user agreement also states "This user agreement is subject to change to fit the communities best interest." The point of this sub forum is to suggest improvements. I am suggesting a change that will be able to help people get to the truth and not base it around he said she said.
I also understand that "This is not a democracy" that is why I am suggesting things. Not telling anyone what to do. This is supposed to be a constructive thread seeing what can be improved to potentially protect all parties better.
Ok I can almost understand about the editing part, I didnt even think about that. But that is only if you show a quote you replied to. You can show the exact reply with the time stamp and they cannot be edited in a screen shot. Same goes for emails. It would also be easy to add a feature that can quote messages in a way you are not able to edit but I understand that would be seen as too much work.
Private correspondence: That is like saying you can't use a text message you received from someone threatening your life in court. I don't buy this one.
Part of the Terms of Service: I understand that I accepted those terms but I am not suggesting how they can be improved. The user agreement also states "This user agreement is subject to change to fit the communities best interest." The point of this sub forum is to suggest improvements. I am suggesting a change that will be able to help people get to the truth and not base it around he said she said.
I also understand that "This is not a democracy" that is why I am suggesting things. Not telling anyone what to do. This is supposed to be a constructive thread seeing what can be improved to potentially protect all parties better.
Aside from the explanation that Seahorsekeeper gave about the ability to edit them to say whatever you'd like them to say, I'll reiterate the most simplistic reason...because they are PRIVATE and because it's directly laid out in our Terms of Service, which you agreed to upon joining.
With that said, please keep in mind that you're more than welcome explain that PMs were exchanged and to use your own words to explain those communications...
User Agreement said:
With that said, please keep in mind that you're more than welcome explain that PMs were exchanged and to use your own words to explain those communications...
Swine
Well-Known Member
I understand that it is in the terms of Service which I agreed to but that is the point of this sub forum to suggest changes. Now that I understand the "reasons" behind the rules I think it would be wise to change them. Especially for instances where it protects people involved in a sale. It would prevent all the he said she said type arguments.
The user agreement, as you quoted, also says "Ultimately it's up to our site administrator to make this decision." It baffles me how a forum could censor information that proves a story. There are ways to take screen shots where the text sent from a user cannot be edited. For instance on R2R you can take a screen shot of the actual message that was sent to you. It would not be possible to edit this.
I really think the fact that they are "private" is a poor excuse.
1) Everything on R2R is regulated by moderators except for PM. So all of the rules that state you cannot insult a member ect go out the window once you are in PM land? Very counter intuitive.
2) If this communication happened in a text message, instant messaging program, recorded phone call or other media I could post up screen shots or audio snippets of it.
3) In all sense of the word private they are not. These messages were sent on this forum and R2R technically owns them, there is no logical reason they cannot or should not be posted.
4) Why would you conduct yourself in private messages any differently than you would in public? What is there to hide?
Something that allows a moderator to decide whether or not the material is appropriate and relevant to the conversation would be a compromise. I am on dozens of other forums and they have no problems with things of this nature being posted. A more suitable paragraph for the User Agreement would be:
I understand that that paragraph is there to protect both the buyer and seller. But in its current wording it is also allowing unnecessary censorship and preventing everyone on the forum from knowing the truth. Currently the system is setup so it can VERY easily protect the person that is in the wrong but screams the loudest. I understand the moderators must follow the rules even if they disagree with what they are doing so this change would allow for a more justified and fair forum to be established, allowing the truth to be shown and let people make their own judgements.
jokervueboi
Active Member
"This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to vent frustrations about vendors or sales from private parties. Please settle your differences with the seller, manufacturer and dealer through the long-established legal or arbitration systems or the Better Business Bureau but not through our community."
I think this says it all. This site isn't supposed to be used to "bash" a trade/sell gone bad. R2R is more of a community of knowledge for reefers. Disputes should be directed to the seller/buyer and through other legal means off of R2R.
I think this says it all. This site isn't supposed to be used to "bash" a trade/sell gone bad. R2R is more of a community of knowledge for reefers. Disputes should be directed to the seller/buyer and through other legal means off of R2R.
always reefin
Well-Known Member
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Strongly disagree if the bad transaction took place and was initiated on R2R
Ryan2428
Well-Known Member
Just pointing out a fact no ill regards too anyone posting here. But You agreed to the terms when you clicked yes to join . So yes the mods can look into it but it is in there best interest to do what is right for the community . Just voicing my opinion happy reefing :fish2:
always reefin
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Doesn't mean "terms" can't be revisited and evaluated for possible change if it makes R2R a better forum and in the best interest of its members. To just say you agreed to "terms" without an open mind in regards to change would be doing us all an injustice imo
Swine
Well-Known Member
There is nothing about "bashing" involved. It is about presenting the facts and others can make up their mind. What you're saying is that we can have a bad vendor (for example this is not relating to a experience I had) on here that gives the worst service, says one thing and does another, has nothing that looks like his pictures and gets away with it because we are not allowed to speak up and show proof? When we do speak up the vendor can all of asudden take a 180 degree turn and become the nicest most sincere sounding guy but no one will know better. It all becomes he said she said.
Thank you. I agree with your reply to jokervueboi
Totally agree, and I did mention that I agreed to the terms. Now I am posting on behalf of every potential buyer that has a bad experience and cannot provide evidence, becoming a victim to censorship. The point of this subforum is to suggest changes to make R2R the best forum possible. As it stands now I will not make another transaction through R2R because of this policy and how I do not feel protected. A change would allow the moderators to allow those sorts of posts if they believe it accurately portrays the story.
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kv69
Well-Known Member
If you agree to a transaction with a member or vendor, it should be understood that some people are not going to conduct business honestly.
On other sites, just by speaking out about another member or vendor gets you banned. You couldn't even get away with your first post here and you would be banned for disagreeing with the establishment.
That being said... I've been mislead and shipped dead poorly packaged coral.. There is a little live and learn... But you have Itrader and you can leave your negative feedback there.
Anyone that is buying from members and vendors on here should always check their itrader reviews. And ask a lot of questions...
On other sites, just by speaking out about another member or vendor gets you banned. You couldn't even get away with your first post here and you would be banned for disagreeing with the establishment.
That being said... I've been mislead and shipped dead poorly packaged coral.. There is a little live and learn... But you have Itrader and you can leave your negative feedback there.
Anyone that is buying from members and vendors on here should always check their itrader reviews. And ask a lot of questions...
Swine
Well-Known Member
OK, but how can we warn someone of a transaction if the truth cannot be shown. There is always two sides of the story and the best way for a third party to make judgements about that is to see the story for themselves.
I like to think of R2R and its moderators being above that.
Live in learn isn't what I want to be living by. One doesn't get someone pregnant than start using birth control. One uses it from the start.. :xd: There is lots that can be done to prevent these things. Itraders 180 characters is not exactly enough to establish a well written review, it never tells the full story. Frequently negative feedback results in a thread being made to explain the story anyway and he said she said does little as well.
Private Messages are, and will remain Private, just as they do in every single forum on the internet. If you're being harassed, via Private Message, there's a Report feature built into the messaging system, which sends the offending message to Administrators. The Reported Message cannot be altered in any way, prior to reporting it. This allows for action to be taken, in the event that the Private Messaging system is being used in an abusive manner.
Swine
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that R2R will keep them as private messages even though they own them? Or are you saying that every single forum does not allow posting of private messages?
To clarify, it is ok to post discussions between two parties if it took place via text message, instant messaging program, recorded phone call or other media I could post up screen shots or audio snippets of it. But not emails or private messages from R2R.
SeahorseKeeper
Where's the mysis?
No personal communications can be posted. This includes but is not limited to PM's, emails, texts, and phone conversations.
Daniel@R2R
Living the Reef Life
All of the items you mentioned ("text message, instant messaging program, recorded phone call or other media" ...basically any personal communication) are considered "private messages" since they are, by definition, messages that are sent in private. The user agreement addresses this.
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Swine
Well-Known Member
Haha, this is a stretch and you know it... Although, that is the best answer I have received so far. A recorded phone call is a message now?
I don't know how anyone is defending this policy with a straight face and having no problem sleeping at night.
Daniel@R2R
Living the Reef Life
I don't believe that's a "stretch" at all. A message is any form of communication that is passed from one individual to another. And I don't believe any of us are trying to "defend" the user agreement, but rather explain it to you so you'll understand why these things can't be posted, but I think you've gotten that point, right? The user agreement is saying that none of these things can be posted if the communication was intended to be personal and private. We appreciate your suggestion that the user agreement be revised, and we will give it the consideration it's due.
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