Questions about Velvet

[CanadianReefer]

Folks,

I started a new 300g system. I took all the QT precautions (one fish even QT'd for 3 months) and put 4 fish into the system. Of the 4, 3 had been in copper treatment for 30 days and then observed for 2 weeks after that. The other was a butterfly fish who was QT'd without copper for over 6 weeks and showed no signs of being anything but healthy.

I noticed my purple tang was rubbing against the rocks. Only every now and then - not constantly. I actually put some prazipro in just in case it was flukes, because I hadn't treated him with Prazipro during his QT.

He seemed to stop flashing entirely for several days (until today - I saw him do it once this morning), but I took a really close look a few days ago and he appeared to have a dust on him. You'd immediately think of velvet, but given that they were QT'd properly and to my knowledge I've never had a velvet outbreak in any of my systems, it seems pretty unlikely. Additionally, I don't believe there was cross-contamination between tanks.

But that's what it looks like.... velvet....

The only issue I had in QT was an overabundance of copepods that despite all odds, were still multiplying like crazy even in copper. They irritated the fish, but I assume that's it, unless it really is an isopod (these things are so small though, and I posted a video and everyone instantly said copepod, not isopod).

I'm really battling with what to do. I have a QT tank ready to go and will take them out of the DT if necessary, but before I do so, I have some questions - especially since I know that putting my plump copperband that's eating well into copper will likely kill him and I have to keep this in mind.

Everything that I've ever read about Velvet says that if you can see the dust on the fish, it's likely too late - that their gills will already be filled and the fish overwhelmed etc. Other than a brief worry yesterday morning that 2 didn't seem interested in food (which is no longer the case - perhaps I simply was feeding a bit too early for their liking) they are acting entirely normal. None of the other 3 have flashed against anything and all are eating. None - even the purple tang - are breathing rapidly or looking lethargic in any way.

I did see what could have been a dust in the tail fin of copperband, but it's really hard to see. I thought I saw some spots on my naso last night, but today you'd swear I was seeing things.

I tried my best to get a picture, but if you look at my other post (Angela's Dream Build) the shot of my copperband's tail was the best I could do. Whatever this is didn't show up in video at all. Nonetheless, I'll post a video shortly so you can at least observe their general behaviour.

Is it possible that this could be a smaller ich parasite, for instance? TTM would be much more gentle on my copperband. Are there any bacterial, fungal or parasitic infections that could mimic velvet?

Since this is a new tank, I have one of two options. Pull them out and treat them without having a clue what I'm actually treating and leave the DT tank fallow, or keep them in there, observe and see what happens. If it is velvet and it wipes them out (I would be heartbroken) then I could again leave the tank fallow. If it's ich, it will be more evident soon enough.

I suppose there's a 3rd option, and that would be to do a FW dip and see if any flukes or worms surface.

Looking forward to any advice you have for me. I'm seriously torn.

 

[ebushrow]

so when you were quarantining the fish, did you buy all 4 at once, or did you add them along the way?
Each time you add a fish to your qt, the clock resets (possibly the issue here?).

Did you test the copper concentrations each day? Do you have rock or sand in the QT (copper gets bound up in the rock and sand lowering the concentration which is why your pods were fine).

It sounds like velvet not flukes or ich....a formalin bath is the only real help you immediately can give him/her...and all fish have to be removed for 76 days and treated again.....you can treat with CP instead of copper which may be better.

 

[CanadianReefer]

I have many different QTs, so they were individually kept. No sand. Only a plastic plant in each with a couple of PVC pipes for hiding spots. I'll post a video on a few minutes, but you honestly can't seen anything. It demonstrates their general demeanor at the moment though.

 

[ebushrow]

one other silly question...you sterilized them (QT's) all before you used them correct?

 

[CanadianReefer]

 

[Brien]

This is disheartening to read because it appears you did everything right. It seems like no matter how much quarantining you do for a Tang they still can come up with something.

I have a new Kole Tang in his own 10-gal QT. My plan is to keep him in there for 2-months. He is showing a little pale discoloration on his pectoral fin at the tip. I'm going to try a few days of ParaGuard to see how it goes.

Hopefully you'll find a good solution to treat him.

 

[CanadianReefer]

one other silly question...you sterilized them (QT's) all before you used them correct?

It depends on the situation. I have 2 plastic 20g pop up tanks I use for TTM. They (& the equipment) get disinfected with a mild bleach in between TTs and left to dry out, then again once the whole TTM process of complete.

I have 4 other permanent 10 & 20g glass tanks. I use a filter on these tanks, so disinfecting them completely in between fish becomes a judgement call. They are seeded with beneficial bacteria, so unless I know that the fish had an illness that was not alleviated by prazipro or copper (I treat bacterial infections seperately in bucket like setups similar to my TTM tanks) then I would not disinfect. I feel that more harm can come from a QT that isn't seeded properly because ammonia can build up quickly.

I try to think of mistakes I may have made. For instance, I do 50% water changes every other day with the QT tanks. I add the prescribed amount of copper for the water change directly afterwards. I do this instead of adding it before the new water goes in because I was concerned about the effects of a high concentration of copper, even if only for a few minutes. I suppose it's possible that the few minutes the copper level dips down below therapeutic levels would give the ich/velvet a chance to reattach. I just always assumed that with something as serious as velvet, if I observe them for 2 weeks after the copper is out, it would resurface in that time. Perhaps I'm wrong.

4 of my QT tanks are in the fish room. That was entirely seperate from my other setups, but my sump for this new setup is in that room also. Humblefish had mentioned the possibility of air transfer. Though this is slim, it might be the case. I'd think it would be more likely that a couple of drops of dirty water could have made it into the sump, like a splash I didn't notice. I'm very careful though, and never work between the two tanks.

Since I have so many QT tanks, I don't have seperate maintenance equipment for each (I do for my DTs though); however, I try to disinfect each piece before using it on a QT that does not contain copper. There's a chance I didn't do a good enough job, but then you'd think it would be the copperband who would have displayed issues, since he's the one who wasn't in copper.

My husband reminds me that I'm a bit of a worrier and gets concerned that my overreaction might be what results in fish deaths (causing them stress for no reason); however, it's me that really observes the fish and their behaviour and he said this in the past (that he didn't see anything wrong with the fish) and then a day or two later, it dies.

:-(

 

[CanadianReefer]

This is disheartening to read because it appears you did everything right. It seems like no matter how much quarantining you do for a Tang they still can come up with something.

I have a new Kole Tang in his own 10-gal QT. My plan is to keep him in there for 2-months. He is showing a little pale discoloration on his pectoral fin at the tip. I'm going to try a few days of ParaGuard to see how it goes.

Hopefully you'll find a good solution to treat him.

Yes, very disheartening. I really tried to apply everything I've learned to this new tank and thought I'd gone about everything correctly. I seeded and cured dry rock myself. I used very little live rock, and the live rock I did use had been in a fishless system for over 10 weeks. I did not add any inverts/corals. I plan to leave my other DTs fallow for 76 days before transferring the corals and inverts to be sure that I'm not contaminating the new tank. Sigh.

I had a problem like this a while ago as well, where I'd left one of my DTs fallow for 76 days, only to put the fish back in and watch them get ich again. However, in that instance, I had added corals during the fallow period. I was under the false assumption that if I used coral dips on anything being added, it would kill parasites such as ich. Lesson learned.

This time around, I'm scratching my head and am seriously considering never trying Tangs again, despite how much I love them. I know that many other fish have a much higher tolerance for things like ich, so my "success" rate (if you could even call it that, at that point) would be higher.

Some days I wonder if I should just convert this beautiful tank into an African cichlid tank and be done with it.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I'm wondering if it might be Brooklynella

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Brooklynella.247938/

Or maybe a bacterial infection

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Bacterial-Infections.191511/

Or, it is indeed velvet...and was originally suppressed but not eradicated at some point in the chain of command with copper. This could be the fish you didn't treat with copper in your own QT, it can take weeks to over a month for symptoms to flare back up.

Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Velvet-(Amyloodinium-ocellatum).217570/

I know you said it's difficult to see in pictures, but anything you can catch might give us a better idea what you're dealing with.

Without a better diagnosis I'd assume velvet/brook and treat for both. Post #2 in the link above has emergency treatment for velvet.

You can use the same protocol, just add Metroplex with your copper. If you have access to CP the metroplex isn't needed.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Also, have you added any corals, inverts, macro algae etc? Parasites can hitch in on coral skeletons, snail shells, frag plugs etc.

 

[Humblefish]

Let's focus on the Copperband for a moment, since you said he was the only one that didn't go through copper treatment and was just observed in QT.

1. How long was he observed for before placing in the DT?
2. Do you know if he was treated with copper before you purchased him (at the LFS)?

 

[CanadianReefer]

Also, have you added any corals, inverts, macro algae etc? Parasites can hitch in on coral skeletons, snail shells, frag plugs etc.

Not a thing. I have many corals/inverts in my other tanks, so had no intention of buying new ones. I had planned to leave my other DTs fallow for 76 days before adding their contents to the new tank, just to be on the safe side.

It's simply rocks, fish and sand. I was waiting on a shipment of tisbe pods before adding macro algae. They always come with a tiny amount of chaeto, and since they advertise that the package is 100% parasite free, I've always considered it the safest source for macro algae.

I did add 2 bottles of tigger pods already though. I added some live sand, directly from the bag (not from another tank). I've wondered if it has the potential to carry parasites??

I had also wondered if perhaps the copperband was a carrier without showing symptoms. It would be an explanation - that happens.

The QT that housed the copperband now has a blue spot jawfish in it (full water change, but did not disinfect since the QT is seeded) so I sincerely hope that isn't the case. I'd hate the idea of knowing I put the jawfish in harms way as well.

I'll try my best to snap another picture. Did you see the pic of my copperband in my other post?

 

[CanadianReefer]

Let's focus on the Copperband for a moment, since you said he was the only one that didn't go through copper treatment and was just observed in QT.

1. How long was he observed for before placing in the DT?
2. Do you know if he was treated with copper before you purchased him (at the LFS)?

He was in QT for 6 weeks. My LFS has a central section of tanks that they use to house sensitive fish and inverts, and that's where he was located. I know that they do not have copper in that system. I can't say with 100% certainty if the fish had been in any of their other tanks previous to that, or if he was in copper before arriving at the store - but if I had to guess, I'd say probably not.

 

[CanadianReefer]

Anyone have a good picture of brooklynella? I hadn't considered that.

I had fed them a bit of food with metro/kanaplex mixed in when they first arrived, but none of them went through any sort of antibiotic treatment.

 

[CanadianReefer]

Anyone have a good picture of brooklynella? I hadn't considered that.

I had fed them a bit of food with metro/kanaplex mixed in when they first arrived, but none of them went through any sort of antibiotic treatment.

Scratch that. Just saw the photos in the link you provided. Doesn't look anything like what I'm dealing with.

 

[Humblefish]

This is what I would do in your shoes: Just sit tight for now.

Continue to observe and update us in this thread. Continue to take pics of your fish, trying to capture what you are seeing on camera.

Can you get freshwater black mollies? Read this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-black-mollies-vs-marine-fish-diseases.312166/

 

[CanadianReefer]

This is what I would do in your shoes: Just sit tight for now.

Continue to observe and update us in this thread. Continue to take pics of your fish, trying to capture what you are seeing on camera.

Can you get freshwater black mollies? Read this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-black-mollies-vs-marine-fish-diseases.312166/

I'm at a fish store right now. I could pick up a black Molly. I'd seen your post before on that. Not sure it would survive 2 tangs but I could try

 

[CanadianReefer]

Ok, they sell mollies at 3 for 10, so they are purchased and I will see what happens. How long to acclimate them? I hope they survive.

 

[CanadianReefer]

They might look like food!

 

[Humblefish]

Ok, they sell mollies at 3 for 10, so they are purchased and I will see what happens. How long to acclimate them? I hope they survive.

Read this: https://hubpages.com/animals/Keeping-Breeding-and-Raising-Saltwater-Mollies

The main challenges to overcome when mixing mollies with "regular" SW fish are:

1. Mollies are timid and easily bullied by more aggressive fish. I.e. Any angel or tang. So, you may need to house them in an acclimation box or quiet area of your sump/fuge.
2. Some kill FW mollies by drip acclimating into SW too quickly, sending them into osmotic shock. They need time to osmoregulate so it's best to take 6-8 hours (or even longer) to drip acclimate them into full saltwater. Also, don't forget to provide oxygen, temperature control the water and use ammonia reducer in the bucket if needed.
3. Mollies have a difficult time adjusting to high flow, so your sump or an acclimation box may be a more comfortable environment for them. It all depends on what kind of system you are running.