Questions regarding CopperSafe using Hanna checker

[Orm Embar]

Hello! I've read some of the various threads on CopperSafe dosing, and was using my Hanna high range copper tester (since I can't reliably interpret the usual copper test kits), when I got unexpected results.

I dosed 1.2 mL CopperSafe into 1 gallon of tank water, and got a reading of 2.36 ppm. By my calculations, if I'm shooting for a target range of 1.6 ppm of chelated copper, then I should only be using 0.8 (roughly) ml of CopperSafe per gallon of tank water in my quarantine tank.

My concern is this: how likely is this to be accurate? I did get a bit of the powder from the Hanna envelope on my finger, but I thought that that was a tiny enough fraction to not significantly alter the results (and as I type this, I'm thinking that I should not use this as definitive) . . .

What I'm thinking at this point is to add 0.4 ml/gallon of CopperSafe to my QT, check the levels in an hour or so, and then use that as a reference standard to see how much more I should add (either another 0.4 ml/gallon, or possibly up to 0.8 ml/gallon added over the next 2 days).

Am I thinking this through correctly, or am I making errors that would lead to over- or under-treatment? I have a rather nice (and rare, for around here) pink-streaked wrasse and a tiny yellow goby that I would like to survive the QT process (and have already done ok with dose 1 of PraziPro), although they are pretty darn shy and only eating a bit of LRS Fish Eggs (their Nutramar Ova equivalent).

Thanks in advance!

 

[HotRocks]

Hello! I've read some of the various threads on CopperSafe dosing, and was using my Hanna high range copper tester (since I can't reliably interpret the usual copper test kits), when I got unexpected results.

I dosed 1.2 mL CopperSafe into 1 gallon of tank water, and got a reading of 2.36 ppm. By my calculations, if I'm shooting for a target range of 1.6 ppm of chelated copper, then I should only be using 0.8 (roughly) ml of CopperSafe per gallon of tank water in my quarantine tank.

My concern is this: how likely is this to be accurate? I did get a bit of the powder from the Hanna envelope on my finger, but I thought that that was a tiny enough fraction to not significantly alter the results (and as I type this, I'm thinking that I should not use this as definitive) . . .

What I'm thinking at this point is to add 0.4 ml/gallon of CopperSafe to my QT, check the levels in an hour or so, and then use that as a reference standard to see how much more I should add (either another 0.4 ml/gallon, or possibly up to 0.8 ml/gallon added over the next 2 days).

Am I thinking this through correctly, or am I making errors that would lead to over- or under-treatment? I have a rather nice (and rare, for around here) pink-streaked wrasse and a tiny yellow goby that I would like to survive the QT process (and have already done ok with dose 1 of PraziPro), although they are pretty darn shy and only eating a bit of LRS Fish Eggs (their Nutramar Ova equivalent).

Thanks in advance!

How many gallons is the QT you are using?

Your plan of adding .4ml over a couple days will be fine. Just test daily. Then you should also see the consistency in your daily increase to know how much more to continue after the .4ml per gallon.

Also I would not treat under 1.75ppm. with the given tolerance of the the tester of +/- .05ppm, 1.6ppm is too close to the therapuetic minimum for my liking.

 

[Orm Embar]

How many gallons is the QT you are using?

Your plan of adding .4ml over a couple days will be fine. Just test daily. Then you should also see the consistency in your daily increase to know how much more to continue after the .4ml per gallon.

Also I would not treat under 1.75ppm. with the given tolerance of the the tester of +/- .05ppm, 1.6ppm is too close to the therapuetic minimum for my liking.

Thanks! 10 gallon quarantine

 

[Orm Embar]

2 mL CopperSafe (0.2 mL/gallon) dosed now after ammonia reading zero (or very close to it, ammonia tested via API test kit which is a little tricky for me to read at low range). Will see how the Hanna tester results are tonight.

I still need to figure out how to add the powder without spilling; those tiny packets are really annoying. Right now I'm cutting off the 2 sides as directed, and trying to make a funnel without folding it which seems to create powder "backup" and more spilling. I really wish there was a Salifert'style high range copper test kit with an easy to read endpoint . . .

 

[Orm Embar]

Well, this is weird - I did a better job of getting powder into the cuvette (there were traces left on the inside of the foil envelope, which is frustrating), and got 0.71 for a result (repeat testing with same vials giving 0.70, 0.71, 0.72, and after hours of sitting 0.74). I'm going to go with the assumption that the checker is accurate and shoot for the mythical 1.75. I'll dose less tomorrow than I did today; if my calculations are correct, I should add 1.5 mL (1.46, really) to the tank to get halfway from 0.71 to 1.75, or get it to 1.23. I'll dose the remainder over the next day or so depending on my calculations tomorrow.

I really hope my Hanna checker (and my technique!) is accurate. And precise.

 

[JoshKReef]

You're on the right track. This is what I usually do.

Mark a line on the QT, and always make sure the water level at that line.
Calculate what my final dose amount should be based on the bottle.
Dose 1/2 of the final dose amount over several days.
After 1/2 of the final dose is complete, test using checker.
Calculate how much more I need to dose based on what you have dosed so far.

These numbers are made up, but just so I can show the math.

If 10mL is the final dose amount, dose 5mL. Test water.

After 5mL the copper ppm is 1.34 ppm.

5mL = 1.34 ppm
1mL = 1.34ppm / 5 mL = 0.268 ppm

If your goal is 1.75....

1.75 - 1.34 = 0.41 ppm left.

.41 ppm / .268 ppm per mL = 1.53 mL remaining to dose.

 

[Orm Embar]

OK, I'm now at 0.98 ppm copper after adding 3.5 ml total dose for 10 gallons; that implies that a total dose of 6.4 ml should get me to 1.75 ppm.

While I think that I got all of the powder into the cuvette for today's reading, I'm not convinced that I'm getting every powder trace from the packet. It's not reassuring to see this amount of variability. It's also not reassuring to see that my dosing is markedly different from the manufacturer's recommendations. How people did this with the "read this graduated scale to determine your copper level" accurately is beyond me.

I'm going to dose another 1.5 ml tonight and see where that gets me. At least my wrasse is still coming out to eat LRS fish eggs; the goby may be eating when I walk away from the tank but it certainly isn't going after food like the pink-streaked wrasse. I hope they both make it!

 

[joec]

The checker is accurate.

 

[rkpetersen]

I still need to figure out how to add the powder without spilling; those tiny packets are really annoying.

What I use.

 

[Orm Embar]

What I use.

I think/hope that I've finally mastered how to add the powder, but those look really helpful. Now that I think about it, I may have a tiny plastic funnel somewhere . . .

 

[Orm Embar]

1.5 ml added today for total dose of 5 ml total in 10 gallons of QT. Will see how levels play out with this addition.

 

[Orm Embar]

5 ml in 10 gallons = 1.30 ppm CopperSafe. That's 0.26 ppm per ml, which is similar to the 0.28 ppm per ml I got on Saturday.

To get to 1.75, I need to add 1.6-1.7 ml CopperSafe today. I'll probably go with 1.6ish as I can measure that reasonably accurately, hedging towards a bit more (but not 1.7 ml). For some reason, the water is cloudy in the tank (cuvettes look clear); running a micron bag to try to polish it up and added some extra starter culture bacteria (Fritz TurboStart) just to be on the safe side.

Wish these fish ate more!

 

[Orm Embar]

BTW, assuming I have a bacterial bloom (QT with feeding and a new batch of nitrifying bacteria), possibly exacerbated by CopperSafe + PraziPro a day ago or two, is this harmful to fish? What I can find on the 'net talks about it not being harmful as long as you have enough dissolved oxygen for the fish and it generally goes away (I have a HOB filter breaking the surface continually) as the bacteria settle in filter media. The sponges in the HOB filter do have some rather brownish water, but ammonia levels have been good (undetectable) . . . now that I think about it, I will check ammonia again although I don't know if CopperSafe interferes with the API ammonia kit.

Thoughts? I really don't want to do partial water changes as I just finished dosing my final bit of copper and don't want to mess with levels . . .

 

[Orm Embar]

OK, so 6.6 ml = 1.69 ppm chelated copper. I have been therapeutic since yesterday's addition! I think/hope that 0.19 is enough of a buffer; my yellow goby keeps to its corner and doesn't visibly eat. At least the pink streaked wrasse comes out to nibble on fish eggs.

Bacterial bloom has largely subsided today, which is nice.

I did end up buying extra test packets of reagent from BRS, so I am good for a little while.

So, I have completed day 1/14-30 of copper, day 10 of quarantine, and 2 PraziPro doses a week apart.

? - how long do I quarantine for? I used to go by https://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/quarantining-marine-fish-made-simple - 21 days in QT with 14 days of therapeutic copper, but I've also read articles on here that go up to 30 days of quarantine? I'm worried about the wrasse and goby surviving QT (wrasse is delicate but eating, goby isn't visibly eating so may not make it even with fish eggs to entice it). No visible disease that I can see, although the fish stay hidden enough that that isn't reliable.

 

[HotRocks]

OK, so 6.6 ml = 1.69 ppm chelated copper. I have been therapeutic since yesterday's addition! I think/hope that 0.19 is enough of a buffer; my yellow goby keeps to its corner and doesn't visibly eat. At least the pink streaked wrasse comes out to nibble on fish eggs.

Bacterial bloom has largely subsided today, which is nice.

I did end up buying extra test packets of reagent from BRS, so I am good for a little while.

So, I have completed day 1/14-30 of copper, day 10 of quarantine, and 2 PraziPro doses a week apart.

? - how long do I quarantine for? I used to go by https://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/quarantining-marine-fish-made-simple - 21 days in QT with 14 days of therapeutic copper, but I've also read articles on here that go up to 30 days of quarantine? I'm worried about the wrasse and goby surviving QT (wrasse is delicate but eating, goby isn't visibly eating so may not make it even with fish eggs to entice it). No visible disease that I can see, although the fish stay hidden enough that that isn't reliable.

Copper treatment duration should be 30 days if only using 1 QT. However, if you are using a second sterile QT the fish can be transferred from the copper QT to the new sterile QT at the 14 day mark.

 

[Orm Embar]

Copper at 1.78 today without redosing, so staying therapeutic (I've tested once, maybe twice in interim and it's been in the 1.7x range). I'm reasonably confident that my levels are stable and therapeutic. Pink streaked wrasse is acting normally (shy, comes out for food a bit and picks at stuff/eats it); yellow goby looks quite pale but actually swims a bit more today and may be picking at food as well (really hoping it survives, although I'm biased and am much more interested in the cryptic surviving).

I still don't like the Hanna checker's powder packets, but it's still easily worth it as it's precise (measurements serially on the same samples differ by a max of 0.02) and presumably accurate. Easy to read (obviously!). 5 stars simply because other hobbyist copper test kits that I've used are a massive pain.

Day 11/30 of copper being therapeutic, day 21/40 of total quarantine, 2 doses of PraziPro given previously. This feels like a marathon!