Quick cycling chemistry lesson please

[BurlyWizard]

Hi all,

Please know, this is not another "are we there yet?" thread. I understand that my cycle is complete when the tank can process ammonia from 2ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours and ammonia & nitrites have dropped to 0. Then the big water change for nitrates, etc. We're having patience (and will continue to as long as we need to).

It looks like my tank is taking a less common cycling pattern, so I was just hoping to learn what's going on in the glass box while I wait. It' a 25G lagoon, with 40lbs of live sand, 1 cup of live sand from an established tank, 1 lb of live rock (not man-made), and earlier in the cycle I added bac in a bottle.

We're about 11 days into the cycle, and the tank is processing ammonia perfectly. Dosing 2ppm of Dr. Tim's, and the tank processes it down to 0ppm in 24 hours. However, throughout most of the cycle, nitrites have been steady between 1.5ppm and 2ppm. Never below (since they were present), and never above. Nitrates have been at 100ppm for several days, and just hovering there, as I'm not doing any water changes.

So in terms of "ammonia spike...ammonia drop...nitrite spike...nitrite drop...nitrate spike", I really just saw ammonia do its thing, nitrate spike, and nitrite hang steady. Like I said at the top of the thread, just curious what's going on in there that would cause the ammonia to process to flawlessly and the nitrites to maintain so consistently (whether dosing ammonia that day or taking 2 days off).

Thanks in advance!

 

[UkiahTheTurtle]

Maybe Try dosing bacteria

 

[lapin]

i would say bad testing results on the nitrite part. With 100 ppm nitrate , nitrite is getting processed

 

[UkiahTheTurtle]

What test kit are you using?

 

[terraincognita]

Because you used Live Sand and Live Rock you’re not going to see a sterile “cycle” with high ammonia peaks and no nitrite then nitrite lowered ammonia and no nitrates, then nitrates.

what’s your nutrient export system?

do you have a skimmer?

doing a 50% WC now and adding some fish is most likely 100% okay.

Beginner: The Nitrification Cycle and New Tank Syndrome(

users.cs.duke.edu

to me this article is all I ever needed

 

[terraincognita]

Because you used Live Sand and Live Rock you’re not going to see a sterile “cycle” with high ammonia peaks and no nitrite then nitrite lowered ammonia and no nitrates, then nitrates.

what’s your nutrient export system?

do you have a skimmer?

doing a 50% WC now and adding some fish is most likely 100% okay.

Beginner: The Nitrification Cycle and New Tank Syndrome(

users.cs.duke.edu

to me this article is all I ever needed

If you’re constantly adding ammonia? Which per your post it seems you keep adding an ammonia source to see how fast it’s handling it without some kind of nutrient export your nitrates will stay spiked for infinity.

you don’t need to continually add ammonia for your cycle.

One time is fine. You just want the initial ammonia>nitrite>nitrate process.

you achieved that long ago.

 

[BurlyWizard]

Maybe Try dosing bacteria

I dosed Fritz Turbostart several days ago. Is there a benefit to dosing more?

What test kit are you using?

Salifert across the board.

what’s your nutrient export system?

do you have a skimmer?

doing a 50% WC now and adding some fish is most likely 100% okay.

Right now, none. Not running the Chemipure blue I plan to once I start stocking. This tank will be a semi-planted lagoon, so I'm going without a skimmer.

Could do a water change and add critters. The tank will be almost entirely inverts, so the first stock will be a skunk cleaner and some emerald crabs most likely.

 

[terraincognita]

I dosed Fritz Turbostart several days ago. Is there a benefit to dosing more?




Salifert across the board.




Right now, none. Not running the Chemipure blue I plan to once I start stocking. This tank will be a semi-planted lagoon, so I'm going without a skimmer.

Could do a water change and add critters. The tank will be almost entirely inverts, so the first stock will be a skunk cleaner and some emerald crabs most likely.

Yeah,
Do WCs and get to it my friend.

stop wasting your food spiking ammonia lol

those emerald crabs may end up eating your plants. Shrimp and hermits would be 100% okay

but I’m unsure on the emeralds.

 

[UkiahTheTurtle]

You might want to get your water tested at a fish shop

 

[BurlyWizard]

If you’re constantly adding ammonia? Which per your post it seems you keep adding an ammonia source to see how fast it’s handling it without some kind of nutrient export your nitrates will stay spiked for infinity.

you don’t need to continually add ammonia for your cycle.

One time is fine. You just want the initial ammonia>nitrite>nitrate process.

you achieved that long ago.

Thanks for all the responses. I'm not dosing ammonia daily, but when the ammonia levels hit <0.15ppm. Several threads and articles I read (including Dr. Tim's) mentioned re-dosing to ensure the nitrifying bacteria was populated enough so the ammonia wouldn't hang around too long.

The nitrates came on early, so I know "the cycle" was working in some capacity. And I'm not expecting them to come down until I do a water change. My question is more around nitrites and why they remain unchanged.

 

[brandon429]

your cycle is 100% done and in no way lacking, or requiring anything further you paid for a quick cycle and got that. there is literally zero consequence if you reef right now, other than fish disease and in no way are you partially cycled, you are 100% done using the new cycling rules which are the rules reef tank convention managers have been secretly using for two decades so that buyers show up in droves to marvel at skip cycle tanks, and buy what allows it.

*using old cycling rules is causing the confusion.

 

[BurlyWizard]

You might want to get your water tested at a fish shop

Absolutely, and I typically do this anyways. LFS is just about 25 minutes away, so if I'm still in the waiting game, figured I'd just keep waiting. Sounds like it's worth a second opinion though. Thanks.

 

[terraincognita]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm not dosing ammonia daily, but when the ammonia levels hit <0.15ppm. Several threads and articles I read (including Dr. Tim's) mentioned re-dosing to ensure the nitrifying bacteria was populated enough so the ammonia wouldn't hang around too long.

The nitrates came on early, so I know "the cycle" was working in some capacity. And I'm not expecting them to come down until I do a water change. My question is more around nitrites and why they remain unchanged.

many reefers strive for 2-5PPm nitrates. Especially in a planted tank that’s going to be a good thing.

they’re hovering because you are continually pushing ammonia in.

if you stopped for a week I’m sure you’d see them drop to 0.

 

[BurlyWizard]

Thanks everyone! Expected a chemistry lesson and not an "are we there yet" and I guess I learned we're there, so even better.

Love this forum.

 

[Azedenkae]

We're about 11 days into the cycle, and the tank is processing ammonia perfectly. Dosing 2ppm of Dr. Tim's, and the tank processes it down to 0ppm in 24 hours. However, throughout most of the cycle, nitrites have been steady between 1.5ppm and 2ppm. Never below (since they were present), and never above. Nitrates have been at 100ppm for several days, and just hovering there, as I'm not doing any water changes.

So in terms of "ammonia spike...ammonia drop...nitrite spike...nitrite drop...nitrate spike", I really just saw ammonia do its thing, nitrate spike, and nitrite hang steady. Like I said at the top of the thread, just curious what's going on in there that would cause the ammonia to process to flawlessly and the nitrites to maintain so consistently (whether dosing ammonia that day or taking 2 days off).

Heyyyyy high five! You subscribe to the same school of cycling as I do! (Yes there are multiple schools of cycling).

I too believe in cycling being completed when the tank can handle 2ppm ammonia daily. Well, I think I may push for 4ppm next time, but regardless, same idea.

Anyways, that is quite normal. At this point you basically have enough nitrite-oxidizers to consume the same amount of nitrite produced from ammonia oxidation, which is why you are reading a constant amount of nitrite. It is just the balance of nitrite production and consumption right now is the same.

Nitrate going up is good.

Just give it some more time, and nitrite will start dropping, once nitrite consumption outperforms nitrite production.

^_^

The ammonia spike then drop, nitrite spike then drop, then nitrate spike thing... yeah I don't actually know where that comes from.

 

[brandon429]

Is anyone with a mindstream or seneye ammonia reader willing to co-fund a cycling experiment with me

Team Im wanting to offer to buy someone some cycling bacteria and two clownfish to track the effects of fish-in cycling. we want to see if it burns fish or not fish in cycling is absolutely on -fire taking off, can't be debate its a million dollar industry and nobody has bothered to spot...

www.reef2reef.com

Burly check that out.

There isn't any place in print or online you can get updated cycling rules like you can there. five short pages to read, changes your view on reefing bacteria permanently. that is one of the most important microbiology threads in reefing but you have to see the clues, they wont stand out to most.

here's what a trained eye garners from that thread:

the answer to how fast bottle bac works, and to what degree
(you used multi sources that strong)

the answer to whether or not fish-in cycles + bottle bac harm fish, it doesn't. disease harms them five months later from skipping fallow and qt (debatable I know neonR )

whether or not newly cycled tanks have a stall phase, they don't.

the impact of activated surface area on fish bioloading, measured down to thousandths ppm. The thread is post gold because of the tester he's using and how its calibrated. we didn't even discuss nitrite not ever, not once, its now not required to know in reefing.

all old cycling rules are based around API= pure madness, new cycling rules uses updated physics associated with active surface area, just like our wastewater plants use to run whole cities. By linking reef tank cycling with a larger industry 100 years practiced, we ended the madness in reef tank cycling lol. rock on.

see if this is a huge but hilarious leap: because reef tanks cycle on time and remain that way until dried out, we aren't drinking toilet water when we make a cup of lemonade from the tap.

That seems like a disjointed statement but its spot on

 

[BurlyWizard]

Heyyyyy high five! You subscribe to the same school of cycling as I do! (Yes there are multiple schools of cycling).

I too believe in cycling being completed when the tank can handle 2ppm ammonia daily. Well, I think I may push for 4ppm next time, but regardless, same idea.

Anyways, that is quite normal. At this point you basically have enough nitrite-oxidizers to consume the same amount of nitrite produced from ammonia oxidation, which is why you are reading a constant amount of nitrite. It is just the balance of nitrite production and consumption right now is the same.

Nitrate going up is good.

Just give it some more time, and nitrite will start dropping, once nitrite consumption outperforms nitrite production.

^_^

The ammonia spike then drop, nitrite spike then drop, then nitrate spike thing... yeah I don't actually know where that comes from.

Thanks! I was hoping you'd stop by

 

[terraincognita]

Heyyyyy high five! You subscribe to the same school of cycling as I do! (Yes there are multiple schools of cycling).

I too believe in cycling being completed when the tank can handle 2ppm ammonia daily. Well, I think I may push for 4ppm next time, but regardless, same idea.

Anyways, that is quite normal. At this point you basically have enough nitrite-oxidizers to consume the same amount of nitrite produced from ammonia oxidation, which is why you are reading a constant amount of nitrite. It is just the balance of nitrite production and consumption right now is the same.

Nitrate going up is good.

Just give it some more time, and nitrite will start dropping, once nitrite consumption outperforms nitrite production.

^_^

The ammonia spike then drop, nitrite spike then drop, then nitrate spike thing... yeah I don't actually know where that comes from.

Beginner: The Nitrification Cycle and New Tank Syndrome(

users.cs.duke.edu

If you watched it by hour from a sterile environment you’d see a similar graph to here.

80% of new reefers nowadays are sold live sand and live rock from their LFS so it kind of makes the whole thing non sequitor.

25-30 years ago it wasn’t an option lol

 

[Azedenkae]

Thanks! I was hoping you'd stop by

Awww thanks for that. XD I feel so good now.

 

[brandon429]

-

was going to critique the article from post #18 but then I liked it. quite good.