R2R growing very fast
- Thread starter WWC
- Start date
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Hahnmeister
Active Member
I like it too so far... seems less stuffy than RC... I mean, we can always communicate with other reefers at events and through email... so why censor so much? My hope would be that as R2R grows, it doesnt start doing things that are 'acting in the sponsors best interests' like some others. Forums should be about the hobbyists, not the sponsors, because then its just a guerilla advertising site.
I posted this before in other sites: If you get to know too much in this hobby, then you become competition to those with a business (lets face it, its not rocket science). Reef sites have sponsors, and in this market they tend to think that critical review and competition is a bad thing. YOU the hobbyist become a liability for the site and its sponsors will put pressure on the site to remove you. The thing is, competitors within a small market should welcome competition and realize that its actually a good thing, as more entries expand a market overall. Rather than fight over how much pie you get, fight to make a bigger pie! If this were the cola-wars or another highly saturated market, I could see how competition is a threat... but in a small market, your competition and critics help expand the market and so are complimentary.
In the paintball world, which I used to be more active in, there was WDP, Smart Parts, and AKALMP. WDP developed the first electronic marker in the early 90's, and patented it. Smart Parts, many years later, added on to this with a patent on markers with LCD readouts (on the grip usually). Smart Parts threatened to sue AKALMP unless they stopped making their 'Excalibur' markers which were better than theirs at the time. This was a bad thing overall. Besides the PR nightmare and backlash, SP didnt realize one thing... for years, the only electronics out there were the WDP 'Angels', and therefore, they were seen as expensive and possibly faulty since they had more complex internals. But in the late 90's, more makers started making electronics, and acceptance of the technology went up. As a consequence, Angels became more popular, and the market expanded (no, exploded!). Now, Smart Parts didnt see this... they just wanted to remove the competition, so they shut down AKALMP (remind you of PFO & Orbitech much?). The error in thinking was two-fold... the 'ballers rejected Smart's products in response, and Smart didnt realize that the competition in electronic markers was actually expanding the market so fast it complimented their sales as well. But WDP knew this, and had not enforced its patent for this very reason... but when Smart tried to enforce their patent, then WDP responded (almost sticking up for little AKALMP) with a lawsuit at Smart for infringing on their electronic marker patents. WDP knew that Smart's actions would not only hurt competitors, but the remaining makers like Smart and WDP in the end because with only a few competitors left to 'run' the whole market, the market can easily shrink. Having multiple small competitors at such a small stage helps push the expansion more than anything... as many paintballers, possibly satisfied with just one marker, dont often stop there... they buy up the competition as well to see if they like it too. Same with skimmers, pumps, lighting... you know?
Think of how BK had the bubble plate for a decade, but it was seen as 'snake oil' by many until ATI and Volcano came along. ATI got people to spend a little more and experience a bubble plate's advantages, and then be within range of just getting a BK. Same with cones... many thought it was just a gimmick when it was just KZ and ATB was still just in the EU. Tunze's... the more competitors came out with prop kits and DC controllable pumps, the more they sold, Im sure. Look at how KZ was going after people before they even had their patent on the cone, and so few makers were willing to risk legal action... cones were scarce. Since KZ lost their patent (effectively, as it covers the BK Supermarine more than any cone design), the flood gates have broken and the cone-armies are all over.
Look at forums like hardocp.com... with people raggin' on companies and products... giving honest feedback and reviews that dont look good. Thats what 'consumer reports' is all about... informed consumers. The company reps there are all for it, and hardocp will not remove 'critical posts' because they dont want the site to just be another 'advertising' method. This is what will eventually hurt a site since it will be seen as no more open than a pop-up add.
Wanna know what RIPCentral did to me? They banned me for 'not following my restrictions' which were to not talk about a certain company's skimmers or its competitors. The thing is, I followed those restrictions, but got banned anyways>> I did still 'talk skimmers' in general, concepts and designs without mentioning specifics or makers, and although this was within my restrictions, they banned me anyways after a while for 'breaking my restrictions'. Someone 'revised' my restrictions, or misunderstood them I suppose... or maybe some company in Germany started blowing enough hot air, and they decided their restrictions so far weren't good enough to keep the sponsors happy. They banned me, an gave me a 6 month wait. Okay... no problem. I could use the break FWIW. Heck, I even waited 8 months to finally ask to be let back in, and told them that the reason that I had restrictions in the first place was no longer an issue. They must have not liked that last part (they lose their ability to censor me, like that isnt a false idea in the first place), or I dont know what... because after a few days of waiting, I was emailed back that the idea was mentioned, but after further consideration, it was not in ReefCrapolla's best interests to let me back in.
Wow. If that doesnt spell it out ('We cater to our sponsors > hobbyists'), then I dont know what does. At least just admit it to people instead of trying to pretend that there arent personal agendas and profits to be concerned about. Charging $500 per sponsor on up every month isnt just for your own special account. Now, I know I can push some buttons, but when a company claims something is 'made in the EU' just to give a false sense of quality and charge a wicked markup... only to really have it made in China on the cheap, well... you should speak up!
I wonder if member donations are at all possible as a major source of sponsorship, to keep the business interests from comflicting with the hobbyists'. I know of many sites that exist only on membership donations and do very well. My hope for any forum is that the hobbyist's interests are held above that of the sponsors. That is really the only way to expand the market and the hobby as a whole. Otherwise, it could even be seen as putting the companies ahead of the consumers/hobbyists.
Best of luck R2R, I do like what I see so far.
I posted this before in other sites: If you get to know too much in this hobby, then you become competition to those with a business (lets face it, its not rocket science). Reef sites have sponsors, and in this market they tend to think that critical review and competition is a bad thing. YOU the hobbyist become a liability for the site and its sponsors will put pressure on the site to remove you. The thing is, competitors within a small market should welcome competition and realize that its actually a good thing, as more entries expand a market overall. Rather than fight over how much pie you get, fight to make a bigger pie! If this were the cola-wars or another highly saturated market, I could see how competition is a threat... but in a small market, your competition and critics help expand the market and so are complimentary.
In the paintball world, which I used to be more active in, there was WDP, Smart Parts, and AKALMP. WDP developed the first electronic marker in the early 90's, and patented it. Smart Parts, many years later, added on to this with a patent on markers with LCD readouts (on the grip usually). Smart Parts threatened to sue AKALMP unless they stopped making their 'Excalibur' markers which were better than theirs at the time. This was a bad thing overall. Besides the PR nightmare and backlash, SP didnt realize one thing... for years, the only electronics out there were the WDP 'Angels', and therefore, they were seen as expensive and possibly faulty since they had more complex internals. But in the late 90's, more makers started making electronics, and acceptance of the technology went up. As a consequence, Angels became more popular, and the market expanded (no, exploded!). Now, Smart Parts didnt see this... they just wanted to remove the competition, so they shut down AKALMP (remind you of PFO & Orbitech much?). The error in thinking was two-fold... the 'ballers rejected Smart's products in response, and Smart didnt realize that the competition in electronic markers was actually expanding the market so fast it complimented their sales as well. But WDP knew this, and had not enforced its patent for this very reason... but when Smart tried to enforce their patent, then WDP responded (almost sticking up for little AKALMP) with a lawsuit at Smart for infringing on their electronic marker patents. WDP knew that Smart's actions would not only hurt competitors, but the remaining makers like Smart and WDP in the end because with only a few competitors left to 'run' the whole market, the market can easily shrink. Having multiple small competitors at such a small stage helps push the expansion more than anything... as many paintballers, possibly satisfied with just one marker, dont often stop there... they buy up the competition as well to see if they like it too. Same with skimmers, pumps, lighting... you know?
Think of how BK had the bubble plate for a decade, but it was seen as 'snake oil' by many until ATI and Volcano came along. ATI got people to spend a little more and experience a bubble plate's advantages, and then be within range of just getting a BK. Same with cones... many thought it was just a gimmick when it was just KZ and ATB was still just in the EU. Tunze's... the more competitors came out with prop kits and DC controllable pumps, the more they sold, Im sure. Look at how KZ was going after people before they even had their patent on the cone, and so few makers were willing to risk legal action... cones were scarce. Since KZ lost their patent (effectively, as it covers the BK Supermarine more than any cone design), the flood gates have broken and the cone-armies are all over.
Look at forums like hardocp.com... with people raggin' on companies and products... giving honest feedback and reviews that dont look good. Thats what 'consumer reports' is all about... informed consumers. The company reps there are all for it, and hardocp will not remove 'critical posts' because they dont want the site to just be another 'advertising' method. This is what will eventually hurt a site since it will be seen as no more open than a pop-up add.
Wanna know what RIPCentral did to me? They banned me for 'not following my restrictions' which were to not talk about a certain company's skimmers or its competitors. The thing is, I followed those restrictions, but got banned anyways>> I did still 'talk skimmers' in general, concepts and designs without mentioning specifics or makers, and although this was within my restrictions, they banned me anyways after a while for 'breaking my restrictions'. Someone 'revised' my restrictions, or misunderstood them I suppose... or maybe some company in Germany started blowing enough hot air, and they decided their restrictions so far weren't good enough to keep the sponsors happy. They banned me, an gave me a 6 month wait. Okay... no problem. I could use the break FWIW. Heck, I even waited 8 months to finally ask to be let back in, and told them that the reason that I had restrictions in the first place was no longer an issue. They must have not liked that last part (they lose their ability to censor me, like that isnt a false idea in the first place), or I dont know what... because after a few days of waiting, I was emailed back that the idea was mentioned, but after further consideration, it was not in ReefCrapolla's best interests to let me back in.
Wow. If that doesnt spell it out ('We cater to our sponsors > hobbyists'), then I dont know what does. At least just admit it to people instead of trying to pretend that there arent personal agendas and profits to be concerned about. Charging $500 per sponsor on up every month isnt just for your own special account. Now, I know I can push some buttons, but when a company claims something is 'made in the EU' just to give a false sense of quality and charge a wicked markup... only to really have it made in China on the cheap, well... you should speak up!
I wonder if member donations are at all possible as a major source of sponsorship, to keep the business interests from comflicting with the hobbyists'. I know of many sites that exist only on membership donations and do very well. My hope for any forum is that the hobbyist's interests are held above that of the sponsors. That is really the only way to expand the market and the hobby as a whole. Otherwise, it could even be seen as putting the companies ahead of the consumers/hobbyists.
Best of luck R2R, I do like what I see so far.
Last edited:
epicenter
Active Member
LOL, you have spent a lot of time responding to myself & many others about skimmer questions & who knows what else. By the way thanks for helping me decide on the 250A.Hope I might be able to help a little...
Mojo~
ficklefins
Super Duper Moderator
100% agree and this is our goal and battle for how we develop as our forum grows.
