Radion G5 Rant. $900?
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nickkohrn
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Right, and that's why I stated that I am not knocking them for it. I was simply stating that it feels like people want the latest and greatest, even if it's not going to be used to it's fullest potential. Just as someone said above, many people get the highest-priced lights and never use the true power of them. If there is hype about a product, many people buy it without having the actual need for it when that effort and money could go toward something that will make a true difference to their system in its current state.
I didn't mean for my comments to seem that I was knocking anyone for purchasing the latest and greatest; as I stated, I often do that myself. I wanted to get my point across that the market of hobby seems to favor the latest and greatest, especially for hobbyists that are largely into social media. My love in this hobby is for Acropora, and I do buy equipment that is the latest and greatest, but only if it will truly help me be successful. Again, I totally understand that people like different aspects of this hobby, whether it be controllers, lights, or something else, and I welcome that because I am one of them. I just wish we, as a whole, would put far more focus onto livestock and not feel like we are missing out when we can't obtain the shiny, new thing.
There are plenty of hobbyists selling G3s and G4s now, which is great for the second-hand market, but the people that are lashing out because they feel burned by EcoTech after they bought new G4s last week seems unfair. Companies are going to make new products, and as unfortunate as it may seem, they won't tell everyone in advance so that the sales of the new products cannibalize the sales of older products—they want and need to sell the remaining inventory. I don't think there is an easy solution, but I think that focusing energy onto the care of livestock can have a great impact on our enjoyment of the hobby. If my corals are healthy and growing well, then I may be bummed that I just bought G4s, but I'm not going to throw a fit about it; I can simply sell them, albeit at a loss, or return them to the store, if that is an option. It's not going to make or break my system.
All of this to say I think the hobby is becoming more dependent on expensive equipment. It's no wonder that new hobbyists think they can't be successful without ponying up a ton of cash.
alton
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I am bored so I want to rant also
A person walks into an auto dealership to buy a 2020 pickup. Walks up to a sales person and rants about the truck he wants is $60,000 and the sales person says yes but we are actually selling the 2020 for the same price as the 2019. And the person says I don’t care what the 2019 cost, the 2020 cost too much? If the G5 is the same price as the G4 why rant now?
I saw a post that Orphek is better and you can use less fixtures saving money. Now Orphek is a good fixture, I own several of their light bars. If you look at the Orphek website the best looking aquarium is the 6’ aquarium with seven Orphek V4’s which is bright and beautiful for a cost with tax of $8,300. I see the post about black boxes, I tried that two. Bought one it grew corals pretty good so I bought two more to light up a 180 gallon tank. The first light I purchased I had to run at 100% to match the Par of the newer two run at 50%. No longevity there and my Par levels where at 150 half way down so not that powerful. For me I run 6 x AI Hydras that are 5 years old for $100 a piece on my 310 gallon tank with four 6' BML leds.
I figure whatever you want to do is your choice, just can’t figure out why people complain all the time. We just need to relax with a beer or a bottle of wine/bourbon. And don’t get me started on the cost of craft beers.
A person walks into an auto dealership to buy a 2020 pickup. Walks up to a sales person and rants about the truck he wants is $60,000 and the sales person says yes but we are actually selling the 2020 for the same price as the 2019. And the person says I don’t care what the 2019 cost, the 2020 cost too much? If the G5 is the same price as the G4 why rant now?
I saw a post that Orphek is better and you can use less fixtures saving money. Now Orphek is a good fixture, I own several of their light bars. If you look at the Orphek website the best looking aquarium is the 6’ aquarium with seven Orphek V4’s which is bright and beautiful for a cost with tax of $8,300. I see the post about black boxes, I tried that two. Bought one it grew corals pretty good so I bought two more to light up a 180 gallon tank. The first light I purchased I had to run at 100% to match the Par of the newer two run at 50%. No longevity there and my Par levels where at 150 half way down so not that powerful. For me I run 6 x AI Hydras that are 5 years old for $100 a piece on my 310 gallon tank with four 6' BML leds.
I figure whatever you want to do is your choice, just can’t figure out why people complain all the time. We just need to relax with a beer or a bottle of wine/bourbon. And don’t get me started on the cost of craft beers.
RCS82
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I totally agree and I like having a bit of the latest and greatest. I think we are in a agreement. I will just say this since you mention wants and need. This whole hobby is a want, nobody needs a fish tank. Just my opinion, everything to do with this hobby is a want. Getting back to G5s, well if you want them and have the cash, get them by all means. If not, theres options, black boxes, T5s, M/Hs,
BeejReef
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The smartphone (I-phone) comparison is a good analogy.
At what point does it become pointless though? Photons are photons, spectrum is spectrum.
Barring any great leap in understanding in coral biology, I feel like we're near the end of the road
...... televisions and phone cameras working in resolutions beyond the human eye's ability to distinguish "better."
That said, no issue whatsoever w the new or upgrading reefer who simply wants to buy once and be guaranteed good customer support.
I'll only chuckle at those who bought G4's 7 months ago bc they "had to have" the latest and greatest and now find themselves in a mental dilemma
Would you (average hobbyist) REALLY want a light that actually grew a 1" frag into a softball sized colony in 6 months?
I mean, that's the fantasy... right. I would not. Would have to upgrade tanks annually.
At what point does it become pointless though? Photons are photons, spectrum is spectrum.
Barring any great leap in understanding in coral biology, I feel like we're near the end of the road
...... televisions and phone cameras working in resolutions beyond the human eye's ability to distinguish "better."
That said, no issue whatsoever w the new or upgrading reefer who simply wants to buy once and be guaranteed good customer support.
I'll only chuckle at those who bought G4's 7 months ago bc they "had to have" the latest and greatest and now find themselves in a mental dilemma
Would you (average hobbyist) REALLY want a light that actually grew a 1" frag into a softball sized colony in 6 months?
I mean, that's the fantasy... right. I would not. Would have to upgrade tanks annually.
RCS82
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Tell me which light I need to grow a 1" frag of RR Jawdropper into a softball size colony in 6 months, please.The smartphone (I-phone) comparison is a good analogy.
At what point does it become pointless though? Photons are photons, spectrum is spectrum.
Barring any great leap in understanding in coral biology, I feel like we're near the end of the road
...... televisions and phone cameras working in resolutions beyond the human eye's ability to distinguish "better."
That said, no issue whatsoever w the new or upgrading reefer who simply wants to buy once and be guaranteed good customer support.
I'll only chuckle at those who bought G4's 7 months ago bc they "had to have" the latest and greatest and now find themselves in a mental dilemma
Would you (average hobbyist) REALLY want a light that actually grew a 1" frag into a softball sized colony in 6 months?
I mean, that's the fantasy... right. I would not. Would have to upgrade tanks annually.
BZOFIQ
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I love softies and fish and all the critters moving around in my reef tank - All else is secondary. This hobby has become a race who's got the biggest skimmer, most expensive pump and latest generation of LEDs which were supposed to last forever.
The marketing papers used to say, buy LEDs and you won't have to pay again and again to change MH and T5 tubes, except nobody told you you'd be buying a whole new fixture every year or two.
Well here we are few years later, wattage is about same and my bulb changes are just cheaper then fixture replacements.
Most people I know "sampled" 5-6 "Pro" level LED fixtures while my ATI just plain works and will for many years to come.
SyracuseMatt
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Why two Radion XR30s to replace one 400 watt metal Halide? More distribution? More intensity? I'm not arguing, just curious. I also suspect the conversation might not have too much meaning until you pick a specific reflector for the metal halide. Because of the size/shape of at least some metal halide reflectors, it would seem like they'd have an advantage in terms of shadowing issues.
Matt
The problem with this assumption is the number of LED units I would need. A 400watt MH iluminates 12 square feet, a g4 or g5 illuminates 4. Also..in what universe does an LED diode last 10 years? Their PAR degrades just like any other bulb. Sure they will last 10 years...but at what output?
With MH and T5 when I replace the bulbs every year (18 months for MH) essentially get a brand new light. So on year 5 I have just as much par as when i started.
I researched LED with this latest tank build, the collective advice was 10 G4 units. That would be $9,000 if I went g5. And the amount of power it would consume? 2200 watts at 1000%... more than my cureent setup.
I am simply trying to let people know there are more options out there that make financial and results driven sense. New people in the hobby are constantly told that "everyone" uses LED now. That LED is the future.. for somethings yeah, but not all of them.
Jeremy Luke
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This thread is a fun distraction between conference calls
2Wheelsonly
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I am bored so I want to rant also
A person walks into an auto dealership to buy a 2020 pickup. Walks up to a sales person and rants about the truck he wants is $60,000 and the sales person says yes but we are actually selling the 2020 for the same price as the 2019. And the person says I don’t care what the 2019 cost, the 2020 cost too much? If the G5 is the same price as the G4 why rant now?
I saw a post that Orphek is better and you can use less fixtures saving money. Now Orphek is a good fixture, I own several of their light bars. If you look at the Orphek website the best looking aquarium is the 6’ aquarium with seven Orphek V4’s which is bright and beautiful for a cost with tax of $8,300. I see the post about black boxes, I tried that two. Bought one it grew corals pretty good so I bought two more to light up a 180 gallon tank. The first light I purchased I had to run at 100% to match the Par of the newer two run at 50%. No longevity there and my Par levels where at 150 half way down so not that powerful. For me I run 6 x AI Hydras that are 5 years old for $100 a piece on my 310 gallon tank with four 6' BML leds.
I figure whatever you want to do is your choice, just can’t figure out why people complain all the time. We just need to relax with a beer or a bottle of wine/bourbon. And don’t get me started on the cost of craft beers.
It's not the cost that's mainly the issue it's people who "feel the need" to constantly upgrade that drive the hype and costs up. Yes, we knew the G4's were basically the same price; investments were made with the thoughts that these would last. My personal rant was more an annoyance, that annoyance becomes concern when the upgrade culture makes life harder for those of us that don't want to upgrade every two years.
Like @nickkohrn I am also a tech guy, my life savings were generated by being a principal design architect for a fortune 5 company. I live, eat and breath technology. You can look at my tank and think i'm a hypocrite because I tend to gravitate to the more expensive name brands because I do believe often that you get what you pay for. With all that being said at the end of the day I just want to grow coral; I buy these products in hopes they are built to last because after I install my fancy vortechs, my fancy Radions and my fancy Apex stuff I never want to be reminded that it's in my tank. I want them to work and last and I want to shift my focus to growing coral.
Recently I am seeing a trend where these "upgrades" are masked with internal "features" that limit older generations. If I want the Trident, I had to upgrade my Apex...I have to buy legacy boxes for additional cost if I want to use powerheads, etc... I see Ecotech is touting the G5 and their controller support now. This is where people like me become collateral damage in the whole "upgrade" scene.
I will also echo what was mentioned on this thread that these promoters tend to get annoying. Just recently I was watching a video that compared the G3 to the G4 lights and the reviewer acted like he just saw Jesus firing them up for the first time. Yes there were improvements but you could also argue that they were not required improvements and you have to actually look hard to visually see the differences as it wasn't "OMG WOW" like these overly dramatic YouTube nudniks make you think. Not one video was able to show real data that shows the G4 promotes stronger growth. I'm sorry as much as I respect Ecotech, i'm not going to go by some "coral lab" study because there is a massive conflict of interest I don't need to explain.
When you see promoters act like a simple upgrade is a big deal with over the top reactions you start to lose trust in the product and wonder if it's all just marketing crap. I get that the light spread is different on the G5, but as a G4 owner I am not willing to accept a $6,000 upgrade is going to make my tank even better than it is. $6,000 buys some really nice coral. As long as I am not forced into upgrading then my rants just remain rants because I get annoyed when people focus on all the hardware but never take the next step. I also guarantee you it wont be long before we start seeing advice to new struggling reefers that say "it may be your lights, look into G5" because simple searches show this has been said before.
I will also say the iPhone comparison is annoying too. We upgrade iPhones because new OS and software released take advantage of newer hardware specs. That is technology 101, use tech to upgrade tech and pay for new tech to promote newer tech. Simple lifecycle to follow in the tech world but this does not translate to growing corals. Mother nature didn't automatically decided to change evolution to help Ecotech develop a new product. My corals didn't just automatically decide to evolve overnight to let me know my G4's who just last month were one of the best options for growth under LED to stop working and now I need the G5s for growth. There are people still using lights that were available in the 70's who manage tanks that put mine to shame.
RCS82
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Yes some assumptions were made. Most of the time these 400 watt M/Hs are run on pool table, or 200-300gallon and up, sized SPS dominate tanks in 20 inch reflectors. So one unit is covering maybe a 3'x3' area without a problem.
saltwaterpicaso
Valuable Member
remember when they were upgradable and did not have to go out and buy a whole new light that only lasted so long but to stay in business that would not of worked i like how they raised the price of the g4 now with the discount is slightly less than original price. coral vendors do it to raise said price offer said percent off back to normal price lol
vangvace
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Matt, to counterpoint... how often do LED users upgrade their fixtures? I would argue that the break even point is moving closer to a 30 year mortgage.
It is also the coral name game, chop shop internet market, and using others money to pay for my hobby.
Look up on a clear day....
tkeracer619
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I know it’s the same price as the old G4 but I’m still amazed people can and will spend $900 (with tax) on a 12 inch 100 watt LED. It truly is a light for the elite. Their advertising pull on the market is incredible. They learned the market will support $900 so they kept it that way. Everyone already has them listed online, YouTube interviews, you name it. Its an LED board, heat sink, fan and wifi chip with an app. And it’s water resistant. OMG they designed their own fan!? The advertise better blending. It’s easy to blend any LED light by using some sort of diffusing material.
For $900!? Oh and you’ll need 2-4 of them over your tank.
For me it’s a hobby and I appreciate cost effective lighting solutions. I’ve seen plenty of Radion powered tanks full of GHA (Gallery Aquatica customer tanks) and I’ve seen some black box tanks that would amaze you. Celebrating a free market! Next up G6 for $1k! Or, for me, something cheaper
The g5 is a 205w LED fixture, not 100w. Also, it is the latest and greatest most powerful option available from a company that has a long string of successful and useful LED fixtures. I'm still using 3 generation old LED fixtures from AI and they grow coral great. Just because a new fixture comes out doesn't mean you have to get it to be successful and just like you said, getting it doesn't mean you will be.
The products offered from Ecotech/AI are as follows. I'd say they have premium options for everyone and aren't forcing the Ferrari of lights down everyone's throat. Some vendors may be but the manufacturer is just improving their product line.
Prime 16 - $210
Hydra 32HD - $367
Radion XR15 G5 - $420
Hydra 64HD - $630
Radion XR30 G5 - $840
I've been buying peoples scraps over the years because I simply can't afford the latest and greatest. I have 10 Hydra 52s and 3 Hydra 52HDs and have gotten them for less than $200 on average. They all grow coral great and still function perfectly. The notion that you have to have the latest light is nonsense just as this whole idea that you need 600+ par everywhere on your tank at 75% power level. It's absurd. Some people may want that but your average reefer probably shouldn't or they are going to burn every coral they put in the tank. Most 4ft reefs are only going to need 2 of the bigger fixtures.
You can get the G4 lights right now at 20% off which is a great deal. The total output is about the same. Ecotech even says peak output was not the focus of this generation but to improve upon the light delivery method.
I've been in this hobby for 16 years and have seen all types of equipment come and go. LED's have come a long way but people were growing coral with some of the early gen leds. Lighting only plays a part of the success factor. Husbandry is still and probably will always be the biggest factor as long as you have adequate equipment. I've seen people grow amazing tanks with shop lights. I don't understand ranting about how much top of the line equipment costs, if it isn't for you, then there are plenty of other options to go with. At some point you may find more budget oriented equipment doesn't give you what you want, so you upgrade. There is no doubt that the equipment coming out this year will be better than last years. Continuous improvement should be welcomed. The fact that the G5 is the same price as the G4 effected the G4's used market value overnight. You can now go buy that light brand new for $640 if you can find one. Most of them have already been snatched up though. These lights last for a long time and you can certainly take advantage of the used market to get good equipment.
I love my hydra 52s and may consider in time upgrading to the 64s or the xr30 g5s. I could likely get most of what I paid for my fixtures back by reselling them but at this point I am enjoying them.
