Raising PO4

[Susan Edwards]

Tank almost 7 mo old. PO4 used to sit at .04-.08. Once in a while a bit higher, or a bit lower. Was able to raise with neo phos and feeding if it went to 0. Then I got bad algae. Po4 was good but my no3 wasn't at 5-10 as I thought with API test. Got the hanna and it was over 20. Algae got so bad I used reef flux. Just added carbon and purigen back in and a 15% water change.

For the last month the po4 has been mostly 0. Maybe up to .04-.06 1 day and then back to 0 if I don't dose. Nitrates 10-15. As a result I have cyano. Not as bad today since I added the carbon/purigen to my media reactor and I also pointed the 2 gyres a bit more down instead of at the surface (wanted to be sure there was lots of oxygen exchange due to the meds). I'm not too worried about it. It will resolve (or if bad enough, chemiclean but not there yet)

I have been dosing 20-30 ml of neophos. Used to be able to do 5ml to get it up. I feed pretty generously. Frozen 2x's a day and I do not drain or rinse. Trying to do more flake and pellet. Pellet every evening for the cuc and the piggy fishes. I dose phyto. 250 ml day approx. I also dose nopox at 20ml daily--for the no3 and have been since the beginning.

What can I do to get the po4 back consistantly at .04-.08?

 

[Reefahholic]

Tank almost 7 mo old. PO4 used to sit at .04-.08. Once in a while a bit higher, or a bit lower. Was able to raise with neo phos and feeding if it went to 0. Then I got bad algae. Po4 was good but my no3 wasn't at 5-10 as I thought with API test. Got the hanna and it was over 20. Algae got so bad I used reef flux. Just added carbon and purigen back in and a 15% water change.

For the last month the po4 has been mostly 0. Maybe up to .04-.06 1 day and then back to 0 if I don't dose. Nitrates 10-15. As a result I have cyano. Not as bad today since I added the carbon/purigen to my media reactor and I also pointed the 2 gyres a bit more down instead of at the surface (wanted to be sure there was lots of oxygen exchange due to the meds). I'm not too worried about it. It will resolve (or if bad enough, chemiclean but not there yet)

I have been dosing 20-30 ml of neophos. Used to be able to do 5ml to get it up. I feed pretty generously. Frozen 2x's a day and I do not drain or rinse. Trying to do more flake and pellet. Pellet every evening for the cuc and the piggy fishes. I dose phyto. 250 ml day approx. I also dose nopox at 20ml daily--for the no3 and have been since the beginning.

What can I do to get the po4 back consistantly at .04-.08?

I think the first question is why is it constantly down. Sometimes this can be from the rock, sandbed, a thriving system with big Acropora colonies, etc. Other times this is due to something we added. Maybe the skimmer is too big or a fuge is working too effectively. Or maybe it’s our bio media is too efficient. This will typically suck down NO3 and not so much the PO4.

It sounds like you’re feeding quite a bit. If you’re dosing you should be able to get it up. Make sure to check with a good tester like the Hanna ULR’s. Increase the dose and look for visual Cue’s like Skim color, coral color’s, snail shells, color of the sandbed, etc. My rock is currently sucking my PO4 down but it seems to be slowly saturating. Although my recent readings have been .01 ppm. That’s dosing .04 ppm daily. I was up as high as .13 ppm before it finally started to saturate a little. My suggestions are to keep dosing, watch for the visual cue’s, and test using quality testers and make sure the reagents are not expired. Try to keep the NO3 in a good ratio with the PO4. Example: (N 8 : PO4 .08) Also remember we can only test for inorganic PO4 with our home test kits, but ICP analysis is able to detect the Atom P. So maybe send off an ATI analysis to see what it comes back as to double check your results.

Mine keeps coming back at 0.04 ppm but My Hanna Phosphorus ULR is reading zero most of the time and sometimes .01 but not much over that.

Although I know by looking at my skim and coral colors that I’m not at zero. Also if your dosing TSP, pick a different product. It’s not that great. I’ve used it for years now and I’m going to switch to something better. Currently beta testing the Phosphorus-N and I can say I’ve seen a huge change in the colors of the corals and the overall look/color of the rocks. It’s like the tank and corals is absorbing it better and able to uptake it quicker.

 

[Spare time]

Tank almost 7 mo old. PO4 used to sit at .04-.08. Once in a while a bit higher, or a bit lower. Was able to raise with neo phos and feeding if it went to 0. Then I got bad algae. Po4 was good but my no3 wasn't at 5-10 as I thought with API test. Got the hanna and it was over 20. Algae got so bad I used reef flux. Just added carbon and purigen back in and a 15% water change.

For the last month the po4 has been mostly 0. Maybe up to .04-.06 1 day and then back to 0 if I don't dose. Nitrates 10-15. As a result I have cyano. Not as bad today since I added the carbon/purigen to my media reactor and I also pointed the 2 gyres a bit more down instead of at the surface (wanted to be sure there was lots of oxygen exchange due to the meds). I'm not too worried about it. It will resolve (or if bad enough, chemiclean but not there yet)

I have been dosing 20-30 ml of neophos. Used to be able to do 5ml to get it up. I feed pretty generously. Frozen 2x's a day and I do not drain or rinse. Trying to do more flake and pellet. Pellet every evening for the cuc and the piggy fishes. I dose phyto. 250 ml day approx. I also dose nopox at 20ml daily--for the no3 and have been since the beginning.

What can I do to get the po4 back consistantly at .04-.08?

The cyano shouldn't be related to 0 phosphate. 0 nitrate possibly, but that's because they get take nitrogen from the atmosphere.

Nopox can be used by cyano, which is why liquid carbon dosing isn't my favorite (I prefer biopellets for carbon dosing, or in general a refugium or algae scrubber in any other case).


You can also feed spirulina to get phosphate back up.


If you wouldn't mind, could you list your entire fitration setup?

 

[Susan Edwards]

I think the first question is why is it constantly down.

Although I know by looking at my skim and coral colors that I’m not at zero. Also if your dosing TSP, pick a different product. It’s not that great. I’ve used it for years now and I’m going to switch to something better. Currently beta testing the Phosphorus-N and I can say I’ve seen a huge change in the colors of the corals and the overall look/color of the rocks. It’s like the tank and corals is absorbing it better and able to uptake it quicker.

I have no idea why. I just added 3 bags of boyd's blue and 4 bags of recharged purigen but the PO4 at 0 was before adding all that back in (from dosing reef flux) I have the RS 900 skimmer. I don't think too big or too small. It was recommended for this RS tank. Nothing in Fuge yet except rock.

I have the purple hanna for testing. My skimmate looks good. Normal. Corals doing good. Some better than others but the ones looking good are still looking good. Young tank with some older rock and corals--was an upgrade. Caribsea and Real Reef rock, and then a few from old tank.

Will keep dosing. to raise .04 a day I dose approx 33 ml tops

 

[Susan Edwards]

The cyano shouldn't be related to 0 phosphate. 0 nitrate possibly, but that's because they get take nitrogen from the atmosphere.

Nopox can be used by cyano, which is why liquid carbon dosing isn't my favorite (I prefer biopellets for carbon dosing, or in general a refugium or algae scrubber in any other case).


You can also feed spirulina to get phosphate back up.


If you wouldn't mind, could you list your entire fitration setup?

I thought cyano was no no3 and po4. I have a santa monica algae scrubber but took it out when I dosed. I do also dose mb7 and added a bottle of biospira . I also have mb clean but not for all the time. The reef flux took care of most of the algae. I do have some powdered spirulina I could add to the fish food bottles (thawed frozen, AB+ and phyto added and coral food also added 2-3 x's week).

Red sea 900 skimmer
2 cor 20 return pumps
Reactor with 3 bags boyd's blue, 2 purigen
36 w UV
2 filter socks
2 filter cups with floss
Double sump
Lots of bags of media: matrix, siproax, denitrate--old but keep for the bacteria, bag of rubble and some rock in refugium

I think that is it.

Pic to show rock in tank-before cyano and with algae...

 

[Reefahholic]

I have no idea why. I just added 3 bags of boyd's blue and 4 bags of recharged purigen but the PO4 at 0 was before adding all that back in (from dosing reef flux) I have the RS 900 skimmer. I don't think too big or too small. It was recommended for this RS tank. Nothing in Fuge yet except rock.

I have the purple hanna for testing. My skimmate looks good. Normal. Corals doing good. Some better than others but the ones looking good are still looking good. Young tank with some older rock and corals--was an upgrade. Caribsea and Real Reef rock, and then a few from old tank.

Will keep dosing. to raise .04 a day I dose approx 33 ml tops

Pull all that blue and purigen. Let the tank do it’s thing. It young and needs to become established.

 

[Reefahholic]

I thought cyano was no no3 and po4. I have a santa monica algae scrubber but took it out when I dosed. I do also dose mb7 and added a bottle of biospira . I also have mb clean but not for all the time. The reef flux took care of most of the algae. I do have some powdered spirulina I could add to the fish food bottles (thawed frozen, AB+ and phyto added and coral food also added 2-3 x's week).

Red sea 900 skimmer
2 cor 20 return pumps
Reactor with 3 bags boyd's blue, 2 purigen
36 w UV
2 filter socks
2 filter cups with floss
Double sump
Lots of bags of media: matrix, siproax, denitrate--old but keep for the bacteria, bag of rubble and some rock in refugium

I think that is it.

Pic to show rock in tank-before cyano and with algae...

Cyano comes from imbalances. That could be 0 NO3 or 0 PO4, both, or one way higher than the other with the ratio out of wack.

I’d pull the floss, socks, and other things I mentioned and just see if you can get a reading. I’d keep the media for now, but if you’re constantly reading zero…that would be the next thing I’d pull especially if you can’t get nitrates up.

 

[Susan Edwards]

I’d pull the floss, socks, and other things I mentioned and just see if you can get a reading. I’d keep the media for now, but if you’re constantly reading zero…that would be the next thing I’d pull especially if you can’t get nitrates up.

No3 is at 14 today so def. out of wack. Media added to clear out the reef flux. I can pull the floss. Socks still clogging almost daily from the still dying algae.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Also if your dosing TSP, pick a different product. It’s not that great. I’ve used it for years now and I’m going to switch to something better. Currently beta testing the Phosphorus-N and I can say I’ve seen a huge change in the colors of the corals and the overall look/color of the rocks. It’s like the tank and corals is absorbing it better and able to uptake it quicker.

I'm dosing brightwell neophos for ulns reefs

 

[Reefahholic]

Just get the PO4 into the system and remove everything that can stop it or pull it out.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Just get the PO4 into the system and remove everything that can stop it or pull it out.

So what pulls PO4 out? Filter socks? Skimmer? That is all I had for the last 6 weeks while tank was being treated. I have carbon and purigen in just a couple days. Nopox mostly deals with no3. I can cut that down a bit but don't want no3 to go above 15.

I'll continue dosing 20-30 ml for a few days and retest

 

[Reefahholic]

So what pulls PO4 out? Filter socks? Skimmer? That is all I had for the last 6 weeks while tank was being treated. I have carbon and purigen in just a couple days. Nopox mostly deals with no3. I can cut that down a bit but don't want no3 to go above 15.

I'll continue dosing 20-30 ml for a few days and retest

Dry rock can bind PO4 also. Phosphate will bind to calcium carbonate but nitrate will not.

Carbon dosing is basically feeding bacteria that will consume both PO4 and NO3.

Couple these will the skimmer, filter socks, filter floss, purigen, blue, etc…I’m not too surprised your phosphate is low.

 

[Spare time]

I thought cyano was no no3 and po4. I have a santa monica algae scrubber but took it out when I dosed. I do also dose mb7 and added a bottle of biospira . I also have mb clean but not for all the time. The reef flux took care of most of the algae. I do have some powdered spirulina I could add to the fish food bottles (thawed frozen, AB+ and phyto added and coral food also added 2-3 x's week).

Red sea 900 skimmer
2 cor 20 return pumps
Reactor with 3 bags boyd's blue, 2 purigen
36 w UV
2 filter socks
2 filter cups with floss
Double sump
Lots of bags of media: matrix, siproax, denitrate--old but keep for the bacteria, bag of rubble and some rock in refugium

I think that is it.

Pic to show rock in tank-before cyano and with algae...

Dino is more of the one we see with 0.00ppm phosphate. No one has a good answer as to why. Cyano doesn't seem to care at all about nitrate levels, and there is reasoning behind that as I stated previously. It could be possible that the UV is making things worse as it may remove competition from the cyano (however this is debatable as one study showed it didn't do anything significant to lower bacteria in the water column).

You don't need to dose mb7 or bio spira as the tank is cycled. Mb clean would be more appropriate if you are wanting to dose heterotrophic bacteria to consume detritus and waste.


You could add a pinch of spirulina to the tank daily to keep phosphate up, but keep in mind dosing phosphate makes it easier to know how much you are adding. I'd still stop the nopox due to the cyano. Vinegar dosing may be better since I think Randy on here said that seems to promote cyano less in his experience. Carbon dosing + refugium + reliably replacing filter socks / floss are all lowering your phosphate.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Dry rock can bind PO4 also. Phosphate will bind to calcium carbonate but nitrate will not.

Carbon dosing is basically feeding bacteria that will consume both PO4 and NO3.

Couple these will the skimmer, filter socks, filter floss, purigen, blue, etc…I’m not too surprised your phosphate is low.

the purigen, and carbon (blue) were only added 2 days ago. The system has always been po4 low from beginning but in the .04-.08 range with some a bit higher (too high usually meant a test error) and some bottoming out. It's really only been this last month that it has stayed consistantly bottomed out. Maybe .05 from dosing and then drops if I stop or go down in amts. I'll dose the max for the next week and test a couple times to see where it is at. And then see.

 

[Susan Edwards]

You don't need to dose mb7 or bio spira as the tank is cycled. Mb clean would be more appropriate if you are wanting to dose heterotrophic bacteria to consume detritus and waste.


You could add a pinch of spirulina to the tank daily to keep phosphate up, but keep in mind dosing phosphate makes it easier to know how much you are adding. I'd still stop the nopox due to the cyano. Vinegar dosing may be better since I think Randy on here said that seems to promote cyano less in his experience. Carbon dosing + refugium + reliably replacing filter socks / floss are all lowering your phosphate.

I can switch to the clean for a bit and see how that goes. And I'll start by cutting down on the nopox and keep an eye on the no3. I just got rid of most of my algae so do not want no3 to climb and start that cycle again! I do have a santa monica algae scrubber I can try to use if needed. Never have gotten it to do much since I got it...

Seems like I just need to dose neophose and then maybe add some spirulina to the food and see if that can keep it up so I can stop dosing. Nothing in my refugium yet but I do need to start it so I can get my ph up! I've pulled the floss but the filter socks clog almost daily as there is still algae die off.

thanks for the advice. Gives me some ideas and things to work with.

 

[Spare time]

I can switch to the clean for a bit and see how that goes. And I'll start by cutting down on the nopox and keep an eye on the no3. I just got rid of most of my algae so do not want no3 to climb and start that cycle again! I do have a santa monica algae scrubber I can try to use if needed. Never have gotten it to do much since I got it...

Seems like I just need to dose neophose and then maybe add some spirulina to the food and see if that can keep it up so I can stop dosing. Nothing in my refugium yet but I do need to start it so I can get my ph up! I've pulled the floss but the filter socks clog almost daily as there is still algae die off.

thanks for the advice. Gives me some ideas and things to work with.

If you still have mb7, you can finish the bottle. I'd just use the mb clean next time. Btw there are other carbon dosing methods such as biopellets that won't feed cyano

 

[Susan Edwards]

If you still have mb7, you can finish the bottle. I'd just use the mb clean next time. Btw there are other carbon dosing methods such as biopellets that won't feed cyano

sounds good! And I'll ck into pellets.