Random Flame Angel death

Daniel@R2R · Dec 2, 2016

Well...unfortunately I lost the flame angel in QT. I'm pretty baffled by this. There was no sign of disease. He was active (probably the most active fish in the QT, but not erratic or abnormally active) and eating.

The only thing that occurs to me is that I added 3 new fish to QT yesterday: a diamond goby, mystery wrasse, and gold assessor basslet. So I'm wondering about aggression, but I didn't see any aggression...it also would seem odd to me that any of these guys would pick on the angel (maybe the wrasse, but it seems unlikely).

I've got an ammonia alert badge, but ammonia levels look fine. Also, salinity was verified to be 1.024.

Ideas?

dbl · Dec 2, 2016

Sorry to hear this Daniel. I'll leave diagnosis to the experts.

melypr1985 · Dec 2, 2016

mdbannister said:
Well...unfortunately I lost the flame angel in QT. I'm pretty baffled by this. There was no sign of disease. He was active (probably the most active fish in the QT, but not erratic or abnormally active) and eating.

The only thing that occurs to me is that I added 3 new fish to QT yesterday: a diamond goby, mystery wrasse, and gold assessor basslet. So I'm wondering about aggression, but I didn't see any aggression...it also would seem odd to me that any of these guys would pick on the angel (maybe the wrasse, but it seems unlikely).

I've got an ammonia alert badge, but ammonia levels look fine. Also, salinity was verified to be 1.024.

Ideas?

Were his fins torn up at all? Any redness - patches, splotches, streaks?

Daniel@R2R · Dec 2, 2016

melypr1985 said:
Were his fins torn up at all? Any redness - patches, splotches, streaks?

Nope. I looked to see if there were any injuries, but I didn't see any.

Daniel@R2R · Dec 2, 2016

Also, all the other fish are looking normal.

melypr1985 · Dec 2, 2016

got any pictures of the new fish or the old? How long had you had the angel up to this point?

Tahoe61 · Dec 2, 2016

Dwarf Angels and a few other fish types like Dart Fish (Fire Fish), Royal Gramma commonly perish after acclimation. Dwarf Angels seem to present differently when symptomatic with marine ich, and velvet, signs and symptoms of disease are subtle. Acclimation, compromised nutrition and the common fish parasite make for the perfect storm. Treatment for those parasites is further complicated by Angels sensitivity to copper treatment.

If most hobbyist with Dwarf Angels can make it past the 3 month mark, most Dwarf Angels seem to thrive IME.

Daniel@R2R · Dec 2, 2016

melypr1985 said:
got any pictures of the new fish or the old? How long had you had the angel up to this point?

I didn't take any pics (I should have...hindsight). I had him for 11 days (got him with the firefish Sunday before last). The firefish hid, but this guy was out swimming and exploring. He ate readily each time I fed the tank.

Triggreef · Dec 2, 2016

Did you look inside his gills? Any pics?

Did you drip acclimate?

Daniel@R2R · Dec 2, 2016

Triggreef said:
Did you look inside his gills? Any pics?

Did you drip acclimate?

I didn't look inside the gills (didn't know I should do that). No pics (that would have been the smart thing to have done when I started the thread). I can say that there wasn't anything really telling as far as obvious markings...I even was hoping he'd move again. I checked him close to see if he was breathing, but his coloring seemed normal.

melypr1985 · Dec 2, 2016

mdbannister said:
I didn't look inside the gills (didn't know I should do that).

Even if you had, you probably wouldn't have seen much. You might have seen some damage (abuse from tankmates) or redness (ammonia poisoning) if that was what caused his death, but if it were anything else you would need a microscope to see it most likely. I'm sure there are a couple other things that you might see evidence of but I can't think of them at the moment.

Daniel@R2R · Dec 2, 2016

Is it possible it was stress from adding the new fish to QT even if they weren't aggressive? I had lots of hiding spots available, but I'm wondering if maybe somebody took his preferred spot.

Brew12 · Dec 2, 2016

mdbannister said:
Is it possible it was stress from adding the new fish to QT even if they weren't aggressive? I had lots of hiding spots available, but I'm wondering if maybe somebody took his preferred spot.

I'll give you my flame angel. He will hold his own against any fish. Lil bugger is evil! :mad: Tried to add him and a coral beauty at the same time and he wanted none of it. He picks on my tangs that are 4 times his size. EVIL!!!

But beautiful, so I'm sorry you lost yours.

Triggreef · Dec 3, 2016

melypr1985 said:
Even if you had, you probably wouldn't have seen much. You might have seen some damage (abuse from tankmates) or redness (ammonia poisoning) if that was what caused his death, but if it were anything else you would need a microscope to see it most likely. I'm sure there are a couple other things that you might see evidence of but I can't think of them at the moment.

redness, possibly from ammonia toxicity from acclimating is what I was getting at.

Triggreef · Dec 3, 2016

What is your acclimation process?

Do you do acclimate or drop right in?

Is this a lfs purchase or overnight?

Do you check specific gravity when you get new fish, and adjust qt accordingly?

Also i don't recall reading if there were any needs in the water?

Probly not going to get a solid answer on it but sorry for your loss anyhow. i know these guys are quite a bit more expensive than they used to be too.

Daniel@R2R · Dec 3, 2016

Triggreef said:
What is your acclimation process?

float for temp acclimation and match salinity of QT to bag water

Do you do acclimate or drop right in?

see above

Is this a lfs purchase or overnight?

I won him in a raffle at RAP, so it seems it would resemble a lfs purchase (for acclimation purposes)

Do you check specific gravity when you get new fish, and adjust qt accordingly?

yep

Also i don't recall reading if there were any needs in the water?

no meds in the water. I always try to be sure the fish are eating before I start dosing anything (unless I see visible signs of something that needs treating)

Probly not going to get a solid answer on it but sorry for your loss anyhow. i know these guys are quite a bit more expensive than they used to be too.

Thanks! I appreciate you guys helping me try to figure it out. My one concern is that possibly the ammonia alert isn't working right (in which case, perhaps there's ammonia present that's not being detected). However, I would think the other fish would show signs. I'm thinking maybe a preemptive water change is in order just in case this is the issue. Thoughts?

He was a raffle prize, so at least expense isn't a factor, but I hate to lose any animal regardless. it's more frustrating in a situation like this bc I'm not sure what I could have done to prevent it. :-(

melypr1985 · Dec 3, 2016

mdbannister said:
Thanks! I appreciate you guys helping me try to figure it out. My one concern is that possibly the ammonia alert isn't working right (in which case, perhaps there's ammonia present that's not being detected). However, I would think the other fish would show signs. I'm thinking maybe a preemptive water change is in order just in case this is the issue. Thoughts?

He was a raffle prize, so at least expense isn't a factor, but I hate to lose any animal regardless. it's more frustrating in a situation like this bc I'm not sure what I could have done to prevent it. :-(

A water change never hurts. I wanna say that I once won 5 fish from a raffle and lost all 5 after they had been in my tank for a week or so. This was about 8 years ago, mind you, but I attributed that to the stress of being taken to the swap location, put into a holding tank with a bunch of others, then bagged again and taken to my house where I acclimated and put into my tank. It was a lot of stress. I likely had a disease in my tank but never saw the signs of it on the new fish. Still, they dropped one by one until I had lost all 5.

I'm sorry for your loss Daniel, but I think think I will be able to come up with a satisfactory answer for you.

Triggreef · Dec 3, 2016

Usually if I've had even a little ammonia present, the water gets a bit cloudy. Not very noticeable until i move them to a fresh tank with nice clear new water.

4FordFamily · Dec 3, 2016

Tahoe61 said:
Dwarf Angels and a few other fish types like Dart Fish (Fire Fish), Royal Gramma commonly perish after acclimation. Dwarf Angels seem to present differently when symptomatic with marine ich, and velvet, signs and symptoms of disease are subtle. Acclimation, compromised nutrition and the common fish parasite make for the perfect storm. Treatment for those parasites is further complicated by Angels sensitivity to copper treatment.

If most hobbyist with Dwarf Angels can make it past the 3 month mark, most Dwarf Angels seem to thrive IME.

I agree although I've brought perhaps 15-20 dwarf angels including mostly flame and potters but also a few coral beauty and flameback with no trouble whatsoever through cupramine nor chelated copper like coppersafe. I hypothesize that many of these random dwarf deaths are blamed on copper. Just my experience and thoughts.

Humblefish · Dec 3, 2016

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but always drop a dead fish's body in FW to check for flukes: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/