Randy yet another NitrITE question

[14 foot reef]

I've read your articles on Nitrite toxicity in marine fish and I am in a conundrum over wether or not to add my fish back into the system yet. I did a fishless cycle on my recent tear down of my 850 gallon reef. I used ammonia chloride for the source of ammonia. the ammonia hit about 4 ppm then went to zero, then hit it again and in 24. hours went to zero, then hit again and went to zero again over night. The nitrites of course rose and eventually went as high as 16 PPM. Per Seachem's advice from the start I've been dosing Seed and Alpha. the nitrite has been elevated for 3 weeks at 16 PPM. this past week it went to 10 for a few days, and now has been stuck at 5ppm for 3 days. Im still dosing Aquavitro Seed and Alpha ever day. My fish are hanging out in a 300 gallon rubbermaid with about 400 lbs of my old live rock. My question is with the nitrites being at 5ppm, and using the Alpha to detoxify my nitrites, do you believe it would be safe to acclimate the fish into the new system today, I'm going out of town next week and would like to get the fish back in the main system before leaving. I greatly appreciate you help and advice in advance.

 

[Brew12]

Following out of interest. I know 5ppm nitrite itself isn't a problem for marine fish. I'm curious if the Alpha being used to reduce toxicity of the nitrite could actually increase the risk of absorption in a marine fish.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Unfortunately, I do not have a great answer. Even Seachem doesn't understand "how" the product works (see below; I hope that they have evidence it "does" work). Personally, I'm skeptical that it does anything to reduce the toxicity of nitrAte. Not sure on nitrite in seawater. They may be extraploating from fresh water.

I'm not really sure what to recommend. Many people seem to get stuck on the nitrite part of the cycle for unknown reasons. I would guess that it is OK to add the fish, but waiting longer is certainly the more conservative approach. I wouldn't want to be the cause of a problem when you are not home.


http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/1803-prime-questions

The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

 

[14 foot reef]

Thank you very much Randy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You're welcome.

Let us know what you end up doing and how it works out.

 

[14 foot reef]

The Kids are back home !!!!!

 

[14 foot reef]

Randy, Thanks for your true science knowledge, they are so much happier back home.

 

[Brew12]

The Kids are back home !!!!!

Beautiful fish!

 

[Tony Thompson]

I've read your articles on Nitrite toxicity in marine fish and I am in a conundrum over wether or not to add my fish back into the system yet. I did a fishless cycle on my recent tear down of my 850 gallon reef. I used ammonia chloride for the source of ammonia. the ammonia hit about 4 ppm then went to zero, then hit it again and in 24. hours went to zero, then hit again and went to zero again over night. The nitrites of course rose and eventually went as high as 16 PPM. Per Seachem's advice from the start I've been dosing Seed and Alpha. the nitrite has been elevated for 3 weeks at 16 PPM. this past week it went to 10 for a few days, and now has been stuck at 5ppm for 3 days. Im still dosing Aquavitro Seed and Alpha ever day. My fish are hanging out in a 300 gallon rubbermaid with about 400 lbs of my old live rock. My question is with the nitrites being at 5ppm, and using the Alpha to detoxify my nitrites, do you believe it would be safe to acclimate the fish into the new system today, I'm going out of town next week and would like to get the fish back in the main system before leaving. I greatly appreciate you help and advice in advance.

Hi @14 foot reef Interesting to see you are using Seachems Bacteria for your cycle. I have experimented with a number of manufacturers bacterial products. My favorite is Timothy Havonec`s Marine Bacteria. I like this for two reasons. First he conducted his Ph.D on the very subject of Marine Micro Biology, and more importantly he explains very precisely how this particular method works including the strains of bacteria used.

I regularly had to cycle new tanks to set up experiments and found the combination of Ammonium Chloride and Saltwater One and Only, monitored along with a Seneye to monitor separate proportions of NH3 and NH4 along side the PH and NO2 test kit to monitor Nitrite, to be very successful. Aaverage time to complete a biofilter capable of processing a typical bioload was on average about 7 days. That is using a manufactured bio filter material and artificial rock.

The reason I say interesting to see you using the Seachem product is it states that it can be used for both Saltwater and Freshwater Aquariums. No indication of what these strains are. Although it does say it contains a blend of aerobic, anaerobic, and facultative bacteria. This makes me wonder if the substance contains a Nitrate reducing strain.

Maybe this is why your Nitrite is not being processed the way you may expect. I have included information supplied by Dr Havonec from his website. His website also includes his Abstracts and links to his papers.

Extract from
Denitrification in Home Aquaria (Dr Timothy Havonec Ph.D.
"There two other processes that can occur in an aquarium to get rid of nitrate which are 1) dissimilatory nitrate reduction and 2) assimilatory nitrate reduction. They are not desirable because the end product of both these processes is ammonia. Their pathway is the exact opposite of nitrification. Nitrate is reduced to nitrite, which is reduced to hydroxylamine, then to ammonia. Obviously, re-generating ammonia from nitrate is not what one wants to do in their aquarium.

Bacteria are responsible for all these processes. Furthermore, one thing that all the above processes have in common is that an intermediate product generated in the reactions is nitrite. This is another substance that is not desirable to have in the aquarium. You do not want nitrate going back and staying as nitrite."

Please understand that I disseminate the above information as a complete novice, my conclusions or assertions are only supplied to generate further discussion. Therefore I strongly suggest that clarification using further peer reviewed data is sought. Sorry it would seem prudent to add the statement at the end, I found it very easy for conversations on social media to be misinterpreted. Hope this helps

 

[14 foot reef]

My copperband butterfly is about five years old. my fox face is about 12 years old.

The Haddoni Carpet is over 25 years old, I got her when she was 15 years old, I've had her more than 10 years.

 

[14 foot reef]

Hi @14 foot reef Interesting to see you are using Seachems Bacteria for your cycle. I have experimented with a number of manufacturers bacterial products. My favorite is Timothy Havonec`s Marine Bacteria. I like this for two reasons. First he conducted his Ph.D on the very subject of Marine Micro Biology, and more importantly he explains very precisely how this particular method works including the strains of bacteria used.

I regularly had to cycle new tanks to set up experiments and found the combination of Ammonium Chloride and Saltwater One and Only, monitored along with a Seneye to monitor separate proportions of NH3 and NH4 along side the PH and NO2 test kit to monitor Nitrite, to be very successful. Aaverage time to complete a biofilter capable of processing a typical bioload was on average about 7 days. That is using a manufactured bio filter material and artificial rock.

The reason I say interesting to see you using the Seachem product is it states that it can be used for both Saltwater and Freshwater Aquariums. No indication of what these strains are. Although it does say it contains a blend of aerobic, anaerobic, and facultative bacteria. This makes me wonder if the substance contains a Nitrate reducing strain.

Maybe this is why your Nitrite is not being processed the way you may expect. I have included information supplied by Dr Havonec from his website. His website also includes his Abstracts and links to his papers.

Extract from
Denitrification in Home Aquaria (Dr Timothy Havonec Ph.D.
"There two other processes that can occur in an aquarium to get rid of nitrate which are 1) dissimilatory nitrate reduction and 2) assimilatory nitrate reduction. They are not desirable because the end product of both these processes is ammonia. Their pathway is the exact opposite of nitrification. Nitrate is reduced to nitrite, which is reduced to hydroxylamine, then to ammonia. Obviously, re-generating ammonia from nitrate is not what one wants to do in their aquarium.

Bacteria are responsible for all these processes. Furthermore, one thing that all the above processes have in common is that an intermediate product generated in the reactions is nitrite. This is another substance that is not desirable to have in the aquarium. You do not want nitrate going back and staying as nitrite."

Please understand that I disseminate the above information as a complete novice, my conclusions or assertions are only supplied to generate further discussion. Therefore I strongly suggest that clarification using further peer reviewed data is sought. Sorry it would seem prudent to add the statement at the end, I found it very easy for conversations on social media to be misinterpreted. Hope this helps

I truly wish I would NOT have went the Seachem Route..... a few hundred dollars of product and a long long cycle. I won't ever use it again as most people that I know that used the fore above mentioned product, including family, had extreme success with your mentioned method and product.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi @14 foot reef Interesting to see you are using Seachems Bacteria for your cycle. I have experimented with a number of manufacturers bacterial products. My favorite is Timothy Havonec`s Marine Bacteria. I like this for two reasons. First he conducted his Ph.D on the very subject of Marine Micro Biology, and more importantly he explains very precisely how this particular method works including the strains of bacteria used.

I regularly had to cycle new tanks to set up experiments and found the combination of Ammonium Chloride and Saltwater One and Only, monitored along with a Seneye to monitor separate proportions of NH3 and NH4 along side the PH and NO2 test kit to monitor Nitrite, to be very successful. Aaverage time to complete a biofilter capable of processing a typical bioload was on average about 7 days. That is using a manufactured bio filter material and artificial rock.

The reason I say interesting to see you using the Seachem product is it states that it can be used for both Saltwater and Freshwater Aquariums. No indication of what these strains are. Although it does say it contains a blend of aerobic, anaerobic, and facultative bacteria. This makes me wonder if the substance contains a Nitrate reducing strain.

Maybe this is why your Nitrite is not being processed the way you may expect. I have included information supplied by Dr Havonec from his website. His website also includes his Abstracts and links to his papers.

Extract from
Denitrification in Home Aquaria (Dr Timothy Havonec Ph.D.
"There two other processes that can occur in an aquarium to get rid of nitrate which are 1) dissimilatory nitrate reduction and 2) assimilatory nitrate reduction. They are not desirable because the end product of both these processes is ammonia. Their pathway is the exact opposite of nitrification. Nitrate is reduced to nitrite, which is reduced to hydroxylamine, then to ammonia. Obviously, re-generating ammonia from nitrate is not what one wants to do in their aquarium.

Bacteria are responsible for all these processes. Furthermore, one thing that all the above processes have in common is that an intermediate product generated in the reactions is nitrite. This is another substance that is not desirable to have in the aquarium. You do not want nitrate going back and staying as nitrite."

Please understand that I disseminate the above information as a complete novice, my conclusions or assertions are only supplied to generate further discussion. Therefore I strongly suggest that clarification using further peer reviewed data is sought. Sorry it would seem prudent to add the statement at the end, I found it very easy for conversations on social media to be misinterpreted. Hope this helps

I certainly have respect for Tim and his products, and I see why you suggest it as a possible concern. The potential for assimilatory nitrate reduction is something I can't say much about except that it typically needs photosynthetic organisms to do it. Maybe it is happening.

I would not be convinced that dissimilatory nitrate reduction is significant, even if the Seachem product contained bacteria that do it (which we do not know).

Tim does not mention it there, but dissimilatory nitrate reduction to ammonium (via nitrite) is a process that requires organic matter. It is essentially a way of consuming organics without using O2. In a fishless cycle using ammonia (like the OP used), there are not organics added to the water. It cannot just happen on its own (i.e., when no organics are available) the way the conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate can. Wikipedia has a discussion of it and the need for organics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissimilatory_nitrate_reduction_to_ammonium

"In anaerobic conditions microbes which undertake DNRA oxidise organic matter and use nitrate (rather than oxygen) as an electron acceptor, reducing it to nitrite, then ammonium "

 

[Tony Thompson]

As always very much appreciated @Randy Holmes-Farley thank you.

Also thanks for the link, another bit of essential reading to add to my growing list, its a good job I am retired, ha ha.

The problem I have is, this particular manufacturer appears to chose not to list the contents of the product. This was one of the reasons I could not complete any further research on this particular product. For amature hobbyists like myself I feel it is always very helpful for a manufacturer to include as much information about their product as possible. That way, if one is inclined, one can always carry out a little more research before deciding on a purchase.

In my experience, Tims products and the wealth of supplied information is second to none. Best wishes

 

[Tony Thompson]

I truly wish I would NOT have went the Seachem Route..... a few hundred dollars of product and a long long cycle. I won't ever use it again as most people that I know that used the fore above mentioned product, including family, had extreme success with your mentioned method and product.

Never mind, hope you get to where you want to be eventually. Good luck with your animals, they look amazing, great pics.

 

[14 foot reef]

Last pic, on this chemistry thread, I thank everyone for their input. Here's my mated pair of yellow striped maroon clownfish, loving their bubble tip anemone, they are about 9 years old.