Rapid Death (3 day old fish)

[MSOEME2009]

Long story short. I did not QT fish. I recently added three cardinals to my tank w/o QT (flame another time please, already feeling the pain). This was done on Friday (3 days ago).

Stock list is 2 Clowns, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 6 Line Wrasse, 3 Banggai Cardinals (now 2, soon 1?)

When I did the initial addition, I noticed one fish was more "brown" than the others. They were black. This one was also on the bottom of the drip acclimation tank which I thought was weird resting on it's two fins.

I noticed after feeding today that the Cardinal was in the corner, looking odd, breathing slightly hard and not staying upright well. I did a FW dip and did not notice anything major. There might have been a few very very small white things that came off but I cannot rule out that they were in the container.

Put him back in the tank and swam around. An hour later, power head sucked him up as he stopped swimming to stay alive.

I placed the fish in FW to drive out anything but I have not seen anything yet. The fish is noticeably pale (it is dead...)

I have now noticed my second cardinal hanging under a rock outcropping, not hanging out with the other one (strong and active). However, there is no struggle breathing; for all I know, he could just be "hanging out" and I'm making a big deal of nothing.

On a second note I noticed my one clown has some stringy feces, most likely indicating worms from what I've read.

Unsure if it's flukes, velvet, or brook; if I dose the DT with Prazipro (have a few inverts & corals) for flukes, I assume it will take care of any worms too. Otherwise do I dose Prazi + soak food with metroplex + focus.

 

[HotRocks]

Long story short. I did not QT fish. I recently added three cardinals to my tank w/o QT (flame another time please, already feeling the pain). This was done on Friday (3 days ago).

Stock list is 2 Clowns, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 6 Line Wrasse, 3 Banggai Cardinals (now 2, soon 1?)

When I did the initial addition, I noticed one fish was more "brown" than the others. They were black. This one was also on the bottom of the drip acclimation tank which I thought was weird resting on it's two fins.

I noticed after feeding today that the Cardinal was in the corner, looking odd, breathing slightly hard and not staying upright well. I did a FW dip and did not notice anything major. There might have been a few very very small white things that came off but I cannot rule out that they were in the container.

Put him back in the tank and swam around. An hour later, power head sucked him up as he stopped swimming to stay alive.

I placed the fish in FW to drive out anything but I have not seen anything yet. The fish is noticeably pale (it is dead...)

I have now noticed my second cardinal hanging under a rock outcropping, not hanging out with the other one (strong and active). However, there is no struggle breathing; for all I know, he could just be "hanging out" and I'm making a big deal of nothing.

On a second note I noticed my one clown has some stringy feces, most likely indicating worms from what I've read.

Unsure if it's flukes, velvet, or brook; if I dose the DT with Prazipro (have a few inverts & corals) for flukes, I assume it will take care of any worms too. Otherwise do I dose Prazi + soak food with metroplex + focus.

You will want to treat all of your fish.

Prazipro is generally safe to use in DT. Some corals may close up temporarily.

Metro soaked food bound with focus is also generally safe to use in DT. I would run carbon just in case some leaches out of the food.

The best case scenario here would be to set up a QT as I suspect you may be dealing with something that will require treatment that is not safe to use in DT.

 

[MSOEME2009]

You’re most likely right about the QT... just got back from the LFS inquiring about the death and the second has moved into the same corner to live out it’s last day... [emoji22]

 

[MSOEME2009]

What should I treat this QT with? Gonna be fun without a sponge sitting in the sump. I did notice a butterfly at the LFS not looking well. Velvet or Ich my guess...

 

[HotRocks]

What should I treat this QT with? Gonna be fun without a sponge sitting in the sump. I did notice a butterfly at the LFS not looking well. Velvet or Ich my guess...

It could be brook, velvet, or ich. Other than the behavioral symptoms are there any spots on your fish?

Velvet and ich can both be treated with CP or Copper. (Copper is probably the most commonly used method to treat for external parasite, due to availability)

Ich can also be treated with hypo or tank transfer method. (These are much more difficult and less of a chance of success)

Brook would require metroplex or formalin.

 

[MSOEME2009]

There are no visible signs of injury or illness. Only behavioral. The prolonged dip on the corpse of the fish didn't have any parasites. However, some scales came off.

Up until today they were healthy, swimming, and schooling.

I do notice the 6 line picking on it, probably because it can sense it's weakened.

I will see how it goes with this cardinal and watch the others close. It's my home office tank, so supervision is constant (because I work from home). I just fed but there is no interest in eating.

 

[MSOEME2009]

I think this is bacterial. I will be getting kanaplex and focus tomorrow. The second died. No parasites after prolonged fw dip of the body. The third now has a single 1/2 cloudy eye and right fin is showing damage and a larger white spot (not a dot like ich). I did a FW dip to ensure no flukes and found none.

I read that you can dose kanaplex to the tank, but I would rather do food with focus. I’m assuming that is the preferred method, especially in DT.

 

[Maritimer]

Food with Kanaplex or Metroplex and focus works well for helping with internal issues, both parasitic and (so some extent, I think...?) bacterial. For bacterial infections on the surface / skin / fins of the fish, you'd want to dose in the water.

~Bruce

 

[MSOEME2009]

Food with Kanaplex or Metroplex and focus works well for helping with internal issues, both parasitic and (so some extent, I think...?) bacterial. For bacterial infections on the surface / skin / fins of the fish, you'd want to dose in the water.

~Bruce

What if it's both? I just fed Kanaplex + focus (made 6 cubes for the duration to split up). I assume the slurry I re-froze has Kanaplex in the water column. I just changed out to new carbon yesterday to get excess out of the tank. Metro is more for parasites, I've had to give that to my dogs a few times over the years. I think I mistook the feces on the clown for white stringy. I went to the LFS and saw real white stringy...

I just posted in my build thread that the other pectoral fin is now damaged. I did the food route because of the eye problem. I will be going to walgreens tonight for some epsom salt.

 

[MSOEME2009]

So the last card died... This is exactly why I started with a 40 cube; learning curve (aka. did not QT); I said something to my vet sister, the first thing she asked was: "did you QT"...

Not knowing what the heck it was, do I keep the kanaplex food blend going to the healthy fish as a prophylactic? I ordered some metroplex to give them too since I did not QT; the LFS was out of metro.

 

[Toofattofish]

So the last card died... This is exactly why I started with a 40 cube; learning curve (aka. did not QT); I said something to my vet sister, the first thing she asked was: "did you QT"...

Not knowing what the heck it was, do I keep the kanaplex food blend going to the healthy fish as a prophylactic? I ordered some metroplex to give them too since I did not QT; the LFS was out of metro.

Kanaplex is not really absorbed when taken orally (Reference if you're interested). Definitely treat for worms (praziquantel). What other symptoms are currently present?

 

[MSOEME2009]

Right now no symptoms on the clowns, gramma, or wrasse. I think the antibiotics are irritating someone because there is some white stool. However it isn’t “strings”. I believe an infection took out the Cardinals and were sick when I got them. The last one had an eye and fin problem. I didn’t see anything obvious after he died in a FW dip. I also did a poor mans necropsy. The question was to prevent any passing of infection, do I keep the keno going?

 

[Toofattofish]

The oral kanamycin can knock out the gut flora of the other fish, but so can just about any antibiotic really, so that may be a contributor.
I'd stop with the kanamycin. You can keep feeding with metro/prazi if you have them as they are relatively well tolerated.
I'd also set up a qt and be ready to treat with antibiotics if something pops up. You can read the stickies, but the common recommendations are furan2 (another med which is likely not absorbed orally btw), kanamycin and metroplex.
Plus have some copper power ready for ich/velvet, or CP if you can get a script for it.
The bacteria that cause fin rot are present in most if not all fish tanks. The infections you observed were probably opportunistic and aren't really contagious unless the other fish are sick or have large open sores.
Btw how did you acclimate the cardinals?

 

[MSOEME2009]

The oral kanamycin can knock out the gut flora of the other fish, but so can just about any antibiotic really, so that may be a contributor.
I'd stop with the kanamycin. You can keep feeding with metro/prazi if you have them as they are relatively well tolerated.
I'd also set up a qt and be ready to treat with antibiotics if something pops up. You can read the stickies, but the common recommendations are furan2 (another med which is likely not absorbed orally btw), kanamycin and metroplex.
Plus have some copper power ready for ich/velvet, or CP if you can get a script for it.
The bacteria that cause fin rot are present in most if not all fish tanks. The infections you observed were probably opportunistic and aren't really contagious unless the other fish are sick or have large open sores.
Btw how did you acclimate the cardinals?

Thanks for the advise. I'm not sure who learns about illness in fish because my sister only said they talked about it for a quick minute in veterinary school.

I acclimated the same way I did each other fish/invert; Float for 30-60 mins; drip acclimation for 1-1.5 hr; once doubling the volume, removing half the first time. Lights off for the rest of the day.

The LFS I got them from uses 1.025 SG and I'm around 1.0255 currently. I shouldn't have bought them in hindsight but was "too excited" and impatient. I noticed an issue with a coral beauty, asked the owner, and got the typical LFS answer "oh he's just being weird". The next time I saw a wrasse which looked paralyzed, not sure from aggression or what. A nice guy and has a great selection of coral which is his specialty, but I'm not sure if the fish illness knowledge is there. He runs copper in all his tanks. I think he understands to be profitable you need fish too and not just coral.

They might have been stressed from the flow too; in the LFS they're in almost calm water. I run 2x MP10QWD at 85% during the day, down to 45% at night. They had to constantly swim.

 

[Toofattofish]

Thanks for the advise. I'm not sure who learns about illness in fish because my sister only said they talked about it for a quick minute in veterinary school.

It's tough because we can't examine them well, can't do many lab tests or X-rays, so the veterinary options are extremely limited in fish. There are also relatively few publications on the matter. I'm an MD so I try to apply my knowledge from human drugs, bacteria etc. to fish. Obviously there will be a lot of differences but a lot is shared and it's a good starting point.

I acclimated the same way I did each other fish/invert; Float for 30-60 mins; drip acclimation for 1-1.5 hr; once doubling the volume, removing half the first time. Lights off for the rest of the day.

I'm not a fan of drip acclimation
Adjusting your incoming tank to the fish, rather than the other way around seems much safer. This is much easier with a QT (e.g. if your store keeps at 1.018 adjust QT to that and increase by a point a day). It's hard to say if this was an issue but a good idea going forward.

The LFS I got them from uses 1.025 SG and I'm around 1.0255 currently. I shouldn't have bought them in hindsight but was "too excited" and impatient. I noticed an issue with a coral beauty, asked the owner, and got the typical LFS answer "oh he's just being weird". The next time I saw a wrasse which looked paralyzed, not sure from aggression or what. A nice guy and has a great selection of coral which is his specialty, but I'm not sure if the fish illness knowledge is there. He runs copper in all his tanks. I think he understands to be profitable you need fish too and not just coral.

They might have been stressed from the flow too; in the LFS they're in almost calm water. I run 2x MP10QWD at 85% during the day, down to 45% at night. They had to constantly swim.

A lot of stores are lacking in knowledge or don't apply the knowledge they have. It is what it is. As hobbyists we have to learn for ourselves and not blindly rely on stores who are trying to run a (rather difficult) business. I don't think flow of water matters that much to fish unless they're constantly being blown away.

 

[MSOEME2009]

It's tough because we can't examine them well, can't do many lab tests or X-rays, so the veterinary options are extremely limited in fish. There are also relatively few publications on the matter. I'm an MD so I try to apply my knowledge from human drugs, bacteria etc. to fish. Obviously there will be a lot of differences but a lot is shared and it's a good starting point.

Funny, my wife is also; I should ask her about it. She didn't seem very interested in discussing gram positive vs gram negative infections on my fish... I don't think your DEA # is good for calling in scripts on your tank ;Hilarious nor can we document it in the EMR