Really struggling with a QT decision

[kkelly007]

I have a 105g DT (30g sump) that has been up and running for over two months. It is fully cycled and is just over the diatom bloom and cyano stages and I have a small CUC that is hard at work keeping everything at bay. I also have three frags that have been in the tank for two weeks and they appear to be thriving (hammer, dragon soul favia, and meteor shower cyphastrea). I have also set up a 20g long QT that has a HOB filter, a bubble/sponge filter and a small powerhead for flow. Nitrites are dropping fast on my QT and it is almost ready for my first fish: two clowns. As much as I want to drop my clowns directly into my DT, I am 100% committed to quarantining all of my fish. I am not q'ting corals & inverts and know that there is a risk with this, but I'm willing to accept this.

My question/dilemma relates to how I will quarantine my fish. I was originally planning to prophylactically treat with Copper Power, PraziPro and hyposalinity. I have a Hanna Copper Checker and was going to ease into the copper and watch it like a hawk. With that said, I have read so many articles/posts on R2R that discuss the success rate of fish making it through a copper treatment--even those administered by experienced reefers--at 80%, with some as low as 60% or even lower. I realize the clowns are hardier, but I will also be adding tangs and other more sensitive fish, and I'm starting to doubt whether I should treat with copper if I do not see evidence of any parasites/disease. So maybe just hyposalinity and PraziPro? Or maybe nothing: just observe closely for 3-4 weeks and respond with treatment if anything appears? I've discussed at length with my LFS owner (who has been in the business for 30+ years and is excellent) and he is not pushing hard in either direction, but is nudging me towards just observing and treating if I see anything, plus a fresh water dip.

I would really appreciate thoughts on this because I just cannot stand the thought of me killing fish with a treatment that might not have been necessary, but on the other hand if I let ich or velvet sneak through my hands and into my DT that would be brutal. I truly appreciate and and all thoughts. Thank you!!

 

[vabben]

When stocking my tank I spent extra and purchased pre-quarentined/treated fish. I'd rather spend the extra money to get them in the display right away, rather than stress over treating and keeping the fish alive through the quarentine process.

 

[MrDellimore]

Hey! You seem like you have really done your research!

I recently setup my tank and I dropped two clown in following the advise of an LFS. 6 months later I had 6 fish deaths and it felt horrible to know after all the work I put in, it wasn't enough.

If I could do it all over again and I was in your shoes I would treat all fish in QT with Copper even if I do not see any symptoms. I currently have a 20Gallon Tall that I started treating all incoming fish.

Right now there is a 4" foxface, 3" Powder Brown, and 1" Blue Hippo in my 20G QT. When I got these fish from the LFS they were already in about 1.5ppm copper so I just continued the treatment and matched my QT.

I only leave them in Copper for 14 days then transfer them to a tank to observe them. There is a black molly in the observation tank that will indicate if the treatment worked of if I need to do anything further.

I understand your concern about treating fish that do not need to be treated, but in my limited experience, I see the fish still continue to eat and do not react adversely to the copper treatment.

 

[kkelly007]

Thanks so much for the reply. I have thought about this and I would definitely be willing to spend the extra $, but with C-19 in full blossom the selection at the on-line stores with excellent reputations are anemic (I live in the southeast). Thanks again for the suggestion.

 

[Fishbird]

There is also the option to quarantine the fish and observe them, only treating if you notice a problem. What I ended up doing for my blennies was treating prophylactically for internal parasites but I didn't use copper because I didn't see signs of diseases that copper would treat.

The other thing to keep in mind is that unless somebody is setting up a controlled experiment with the same water parameters and same fish from the same sources at the same time and keeping written notes it's really hard to make a strong case that quarantine kills fish. People are quick to point out that fish die in quarantine but they also die when added directly to display tanks. There are many threads on this forum alone about that happening.

 

[Fishbird]

Just wanted to add, the way I look at quarantine is that its a way to keep highly contagious, fatal diseases (velvet, brook) out of my tank and ideally to keep internal parasites and ich out too. If I ever purchase a fish and discover that it has velvet while its in a QT tank I don't have to stress it by trying to get it out of my DT, it's already in a place where I can treat it, and if it doesn't survive treatment then at least it didn't also transmit the disease to my healthy fish in my DT.

I don't want to have to do ich management but I know that it is an option. I have never heard of "velvet management" or "brooklynella management" (or uronema management, if you get fish that are susceptible to uronema).

 

[MrsBugmaster]

Fish can have ich and show no signs. Stress can make ich pop out and you starting seeing it on your fish. So maybe the fish is not stressed out in qt and then you put them in your dt. Later you add another fish and this fish stresses out the other fish, boom ich rears it ugly head. I always prophylactically treat.
Have you read all the threads in the Fish Disease forums about how to properly qt?

 

[kkelly007]

Fish can have ich and show no signs. Stress can make ich pop out and you starting seeing it on your fish. So maybe the fish is not stressed out in qt and then you put them in your dt. Later you add another fish and this fish stresses out the other fish, boom ich rears it ugly head. I always prophylactically treat.
Have you read all the threads in the Fish Disease forums about how to properly qt?

Thanks for the reply. I have read all of the quarantine threads in the Fish Disease forum that I could find and it's a treasure trove of information--this site is fantastic. In fact, I set my QT up based on some of those threads. And I totally get it about a fish having ich but showing no signs in quarantine and then it gets introduced into the DT, gets stressed because he is picked on, and the ich finds a way in and starts impacting the fish. That is another huge element that is entering into the calculus of why I may prophylactically quarantine with copper. Really appreciate the thoughts!

 

[lion king]

I really don't think prophylactically treating with Copper has any upside at all. Those that do think because they never have ick or velvet that it worked, when actually those weren't there to begin with, it's jsut a false sense of security. Some theories are prophylactic treatment with copper doesn't have an effect on ick in it's dormant stage anyway.

There are many long term effects of copper exposure that you never hear about, even if making through the rigorous traement, many succumb months to up a year later. I have associated blindness and unexpected death to copper treatment. I've cut open several fish that died unexpectedly after copper treatment, and found organs hemorrhaged and it different stages of damage.

Some theories suggest that any sub therapeutic use of copper can produce an even more viral strain of ick and velvet. For me, copper is only used after a definitive diagnosis.

 

[kangadrew]

FWIW - I would check out what LADD's protocol is. Kevin Cohen is the MAN, and he's had success acclimating some insanely tough fish (peps, narcs, etc). Their thoughts on copper and QT in general (from this page):

"We maintain a lower salinity of 1.018 specific gravity in our quarantine system... the first benefit of low salinity is that it aides in the fishes’ osmoregulatory process... the second benefit of keeping fish in lower salinity is that it reduces the potential for parasitic and protozoan infections... we also use a therapeutic (0.15ppm) amount of ionic copper sulfate in our quarantine system which eliminates and prevents parasitic outbreaks and attacks"

"All quarantined fish are treated with a therapeutic level (0.15ppm) of ionic copper sulfate along with a 37% formaldehyde solution to combat Marine Velvet... and Saltwater Ich"

On that page they also mention using freshwater baths with Prazi, metronidazole, and piperazine.

John Coppolino (runs a ~2000g reef system in VA) used to recommend running cupramine and nitrofurazone concurrently with a salinity of 1.015-1.020, then Prazi as needed. He's worked with some rare stuff, as well and has quarantined probably thousands of fish in his career.

Or check Ted Krupman. He's not in the hobby anymore as far as I know but he kept the REAL top dollar stuff (peppermints, personatus, kingi, conspic hybrids, gemmatum hybrids, rare triggers, etc). He's got the most stringent quarantine process I've seen, he had about 375 gallons worth of QT space for new fish. Kept them in the tank normally for like 8-10 weeks before even beginning to medicate. He recommended ramping copper up to therapeutic levels slower than recommended. His procedure (for angelfish) was:

• 15-17 drops cupramine per 10.5g on day 1
• Wait 72 hrs
• Repeat and get to final concentration of 0.45-0.47 mg/l, taking twice as long as recommended to reach this level

He also used Prazi, malachite, and formalin.

Just a few thoughts there. Personally - if John, Ted, and Kevin are doing it on ALL their fish, I'd probably follow suit