Red Dragon Return Pump - Internal or External Install

[turfster26]

I am going to be acquiring a used custom sump and it willing be coming with a Red Dragon pump. Currently it is installed internally (under display tank install). I have a full basement maintenance room and will plumbing the entire sump, skimmer and return pump downstairs and have plenty of options/room to do whatever I want.

I have always (past 15+ years) run all my pumps externally; mainly in a basement/maintenance room applications. Early on it was Little Giant pumps and for the past 10+ years Iwaki and PanWorld/Blueline pumps. I have 10' of vertical head pressure and (2) 1" return lines running 45' each to the display tank.

Sooooo......I am very torn once I get the sump and return pump, should I simply work within the current internal configuration or should I drill for a 2" Sch80 bulkhead and plumb for an external plumbing configuration?

I have never run Red Dragon pumps before and don't know what hobbyist typical run them. So any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance for any help you could provide.

 

[drtrash]

Im a simple guy that wants to avoid putting anymore holes in a sump or tank, holes leak so perfer inside as long as its not a hot running pump

 

[mfinn]

I use a RD3, 80 watt and a RD3, 150 watt pump externally.
I would add the bulkhead every time, whether it was a RD pump or other pump.
Do it right the first time and it won't leak.

 

[drtrash]

Fin do you recomend the rd pump? Thinking a 50 for 100 gal

 

[mfinn]

Fin do you recomend the rd pump? Thinking a 50 for 100 gal

I'm so happy with the lack of any noise ( I suppose equal to the Vectras, but with the RD name for dependability ), I would recommend a RD, if it's within your means.
The only thing that I'm not crazy with is the big clunky controller, as opposed to the smaller Vectra ones.

 

[drtrash]

My fear is having a $700 pump take a crap

 

[turfster26]

I use a RD3, 80 watt and a RD3, 150 watt pump externally.
I would add the bulkhead every time, whether it was a RD pump or other pump.
Do it right the first time and it won't leak.

That's my initial thinking. I've run external pumps for literally years with no problems, especially if you use Sch80 bulkheads. No salt creep or leaks.

The RD3 is the 230 "flow rated" pump, not the pressure pump. And in it's current configuration inside the sump there are two 90-degree fittings because the previous owner ran it under his display tank, so flow restriction was not an issue. But in a basement application with vertical head loss and close to 50' of run to the display I have to pay close attention to how many fittings I use. If I go external I can come straight up from the pump discharge and put a 2" ball valve and then do a 1-1/2" or 2" manifold confiuration from there. There's only so much room inside a return section of a sump to monkey around and get things plumb.

I guess I am answering my own question in a way, but wanted to run it up the flagpole to see how popular and/or common it is to run pumps internally? It is pretty neat and compact in a way running them inside. I haven't done so in so many years and when I saw the sump setup it got me thinking.

Any way keep the suggestions coming before I make the final call in the next week or so.

Many thanks again......

 

[Breadman03]

The 230 flow won't have an issue pumping up a floor. I ran mine for a couple years but recently swapped it out for a Blueline 70 that I had laying around because I wanted to run my skimmer and return off of a manifold. I'm not sure that the 230 flow would be able to drive it all, but expect that it would be fine and will be picking up the plumbing to make the two interchangeable at some point. I should note that I run 2" plumbing to minimize head loss.

 

[turfster26]

The 230 flow won't have an issue pumping up a floor. I ran mine for a couple years but recently swapped it out for a Blueline 70 that I had laying around because I wanted to run my skimmer and return off of a manifold. I'm not sure that the 230 flow would be able to drive it all, but expect that it would be fine and will be picking up the plumbing to make the two interchangeable at some point. I should note that I run 2" plumbing to minimize head loss.

I was told that the "flow" rated RD3 230 is rated for 6340 gph. That should be more than enough for (2) 1" return, run a 40-gl frag tank and 2-3 media reactors I would think. Especially if I come directly off with 2" fittings. Unless I have that wrong??? I was told that RD pumps are rated very conservatively. Worse case I'll have to upgrade the volute and impeller to a "pressure" rated, which will cost a few hundred to convert.

Luckily, I have an internal skimmer so I should be good on that end.

Btw: the RD3 230 is replacing (2) Blueline 70's and (1) Iwaki. I wanted to get away from running three separate pumps. The Blueline's and Iwaki's ran flawlessly for 8+ years.

 

[mfinn]

@slief could shed some exact info.

 

[Akersta]

I’m currentky running (2) RD3 230 watt pumps internally on my main system. Each pump handles one of the returns to each of my (3) tanks for redundancy. They are awesome pumps. I only run them at 70 Watts each as that is all the flow my returns can handle. I did go a little overboard by running a 3” diameter manifold around by room to 1 1/4” tees than reduce to 1” at the bulkheads to keep the head loss to a minimum. You would be fine with a 150 or 230.

 

[bhuyett]

My fear is having a $700 pump take a crap

LOL, that $700 German built pump is less likely to crap out then a $450 Chinese pump that is well known.

The RE DC controller is a bit clunky sure. But I would rather have that then the large DC converter you have to deal with on the Ecotech pumps.

Curious where are you placing your sump at? Under the tank, second floor, or in an adjacent fish room?

 

[bhuyett]

I have posted these pics up on another thread. But you get the idea here.

Vectra L1 and the RE 80watt DC pump.

If you are looking at either the 150 or 250, that will be a monster!

 

[Akersta]

The RD3 80 watt pumps are junk. I don’t believe they are selling them any longer. I had one that lasted only a few weeks until the controller burnt up.

 

[turfster26]

I’m currentky running (2) RD3 230 watt pumps internally on my main system. Each pump handles one of the returns to each of my (3) tanks for redundancy. They are awesome pumps. I only run them at 70 Watts each as that is all the flow my returns can handle. I did go a little overboard by running a 3” diameter manifold around by room to 1 1/4” tees than reduce to 1” at the bulkheads to keep the head loss to a minimum. You would be fine with a 150 or 230.

Thank you for your feedback......a couple of quick questions.

How big is your display? Are your pumps installed in a basement and/or maintenance room application or under you display tank? Are your RD pumps pressure or flow rated?

My biggest concern is the RD 230 pump I am purchasing is flow rated and I can't afford any pressure loss. That's what's creating all these concerns regarding pluming internal or external. I am just afraid if I plumb internally, which will require (2) 1-1/2" 90's to get out of the return section of the sump, I will kill my flow right out of the gate. If I go external, which is going to require drilling a 2" bulkhead, I can go straight away with a 2" ball valve and then a full 2" manifold setup.

I am not afraid of plumbing, and it's actually my strongest suit in the hobby. I just want to get this newer custom sump and return pump setup correctly from the beginning. Measure twice and cut once.

Many thx again for your help

 

[turfster26]

Curious where are you placing your sump at? Under the tank, second floor, or in an adjacent fish room?

My installation is a display tank on the first floor (TV room) and my entire sump and all equipment is in the basement; nothing upstairs under the display.

 

[Akersta]

My pumps are located in my sump on the floor below. The stand is around 40" high so my vertical head is around 67" and they are flow rated pumps. The two pumps service my 250DD and (2) 300DD tanks. Here are a few pictures below:

You are definitely going to want to go with at least 2" dia. pipe from the pump. 1.5" pipe is only rated for a maximum of 3,600 GPH. You really have to establish your desired end flow and then work backwards...


I can quickly do the math for your overall head pressure for you if you can answer the following questions:

• You might have mentioned already but what is your desired total end flow needed upstairs?
  
• What is the total length of vertical pipe you will be running? Please list for each pipe size as well.
  
• What is the total length of horizontal pipe you will be running? Please list for each pipe size as well.
• What is the approximate change in elevation from your pump in the basement to your return line at the top of your aquarium?
  
• Please list each of the fittings you plan on using and their size.
• Are you planning on running schedule 40 or 80 pipe? You will get a little more flow out of schedule 40.

Thanks,

 

[turfster26]

I can quickly do the math for your overall head pressure for you if you can answer the following questions:

• You might have mentioned already but what is your desired total end flow needed upstairs?
  
• What is the total length of vertical pipe you will be running? Please list for each pipe size as well.
  
• What is the total length of horizontal pipe you will be running? Please list for each pipe size as well.
• What is the approximate change in elevation from your pump in the basement to your return line at the top of your aquarium?
  
• Please list each of the fittings you plan on using and their size.
• Are you planning on running schedule 40 or 80 pipe? You will get a little more flow out of schedule 40.

Thanks,

Wow.....GREAT stuff. I'll do my level best to answer so we can identify my RD3 needs:

1) I really do not have a "desired" flow to my display. I have always employed Sanjay's mantra of having little sump to display turnover and have most of my flow internally through powerheads (or in some people's cases....closed loop). So I do not know my current flow sump-to-display. I guess the best way I can answer is I currently run (2) Blueline 70's return pumps and they are throttled back 2/3's via ball valves; been sufficient for 8+ years.

2) I have 72" of vertical 1" flexible PVC at the display and 36" in the basement room. So 9-10' total vertical left. All my piping is 1" flexible PVC.

3) I have (2) separate 1" flexible PVC going from sump to display. And the length of run is 50' each in total from sump to display.

4) 9-10'

5) I have (4) 1" 90's that feed my return at the display tank. And I plan on have a 2" manifold directly off the return pump. So I am assuming that I will have limited fittings once my flow leaves the manifold; which will feed my (2) 1" return lines and (1) 3/4" line feeding my reactors manifold and (1) 1/2" line feeding my frag tank. So typical fittings associated with that plumbing setup with limited 90's as much as possible. Luckily I have a ton of room in my basement maintenance room so I do not have a lot of bends and turns to deal with.

6) I run almost all my piping with flexible PVC. The only Sch40 is directly off the return pump/manifold. And I plan on oversizing all my ball valves directly off the pump and manifold assembly and then reduce down from there to feed the returns, reactors and frag tank. Skimmer is an internal configuration.

I hope this helps and gladly offer greater detail if need? Worse case, if my flow rated RD3 230 is not strong enough, I'll have to simply upgrade the volute and impeller to pressure rated. Don't want to do unless absolutely necessary though do to $$$ to upgrade.