Red marks and strange behavior in snowflake mooray

[parker067]

Good afternoon everyone I just came home from class this afternoon and I found my eel in front of the tank with what looks like red dots all over his face. I did some quick googling and it could be thiaminase poisoning. How do I treat quickly I love this guy and I don’t want to lose him.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Good afternoon everyone I just came home from class this afternoon and I found my eel in front of the tank with what looks like red dots all over his face. I did some quick googling and it could be thiaminase poisoning. How do I treat quickly I love this guy and I don’t want to lose him.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Can you take another picture under white lights, it is difficult to see anything under blue lights.
How long have you had the eel?
What other fish are in with it?

Thiaminase isn't really a poison, it is an enzyme that is found in some seafoods that breaks down Thiamin (vitamin B1) causing the fish to become deficient. Here is a write-up I did on the topic:

Thiaminase​

Thiaminase is an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1). In high enough concentrations in food, thiaminase will create thiamin deficient diets in fish. This is a common, yet serious problem with predatory fish that are fed feeder goldfish, as goldfish are very high in thiaminase. Lionfish, piranha and oscars cichlids were commonly fed all-goldfish diets by home aquarists. Health issues in their fish were then very common; fatty liver disease in lionfish, pica in piranha (where they eat each other to try to get more thiamin) and HLLE in oscars. Fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase can be supplemented with thiamin. Conversely, aquarists can avoid feeding fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase.


The actual impact of thiaminase on a fish’s diet depends on three factors:

What proportion of thiaminase-containing food is fed to the fish
What the concentration of thiaminase is in the food item
How much vitamin B1 is already present in the food



The following is a partial list of seafoods that contain and don’t contain thiaminase:



Species high in thiaminase

Anchovy (Engraulis sp.)

Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)

Capelin (Mallotus villosus)

Carp (Cyprinus carpio)

Clams (family Veneridae)

Goldfish (Carassius auratus)

Lobster (Homarus americanus)

Menhaden (Brevoortia spp.)

Minnows (Cyprinids)

Mussels (Mytilus spp.)

Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)

Sardine (Harengula spp.)

Scallops (Pecten spp.)

Shrimp and prawns (various species)

Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)

White bass (Morone chrysops)

Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)



Species lower in thiaminase

Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)

Atlantic hake (Merluccius bilinearis)

Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)

Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)

Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)

Brown trout (Salmo trutta)

Catfish (Ictalurus and related spp)

Cisco (Coregonus spp.)

Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)

Flounder / sole (Pleuronectes and related spp.)

Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)

Hake (Urophycis spp)

Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)

Mullet (Mugilidae spp)

Poecilids (Guppies, platies, mollies)

Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius spp.)

Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)

Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)

Worms (Lumbricus spp)

Silversides confusion – many aquarists feed frozen “silversides” to their aquarium animals. True silversides (Atherinids) are low in thiaminase. Many fish food manufacturers use other fish species and call them “silversides”. Some of those fish are actually smelts or sardines and are high in thiaminase. Of five products on the market that were looked at, only one contained actual silversides (Rowlett, 2017). True silversides will have two dorsal fins (the first one may lie close to the body). The smelts have an adipose fin and a single dorsal fin (like trout do).

Jay

 

[parker067]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Can you take another picture under white lights, it is difficult to see anything under blue lights.
How long have you had the eel?
What other fish are in with it?

Thiaminase is really a poison, it is an enzyme that is found in some seafoods that breaks down Thiamin (vitamin B1) causing the fish to become deficient. Here is a write-up I did on the topic:

Thiaminase​

Thiaminase is an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1). In high enough concentrations in food, thiaminase will create thiamin deficient diets in fish. This is a common, yet serious problem with predatory fish that are fed feeder goldfish, as goldfish are very high in thiaminase. Lionfish, piranha and oscars cichlids were commonly fed all-goldfish diets by home aquarists. Health issues in their fish were then very common; fatty liver disease in lionfish, pica in piranha (where they eat each other to try to get more thiamin) and HLLE in oscars. Fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase can be supplemented with thiamin. Conversely, aquarists can avoid feeding fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase.


The actual impact of thiaminase on a fish’s diet depends on three factors:

What proportion of thiaminase-containing food is fed to the fish
What the concentration of thiaminase is in the food item
How much vitamin B1 is already present in the food



The following is a partial list of seafoods that contain and don’t contain thiaminase:



Species high in thiaminase

Anchovy (Engraulis sp.)

Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)

Capelin (Mallotus villosus)

Carp (Cyprinus carpio)

Clams (family Veneridae)

Goldfish (Carassius auratus)

Lobster (Homarus americanus)

Menhaden (Brevoortia spp.)

Minnows (Cyprinids)

Mussels (Mytilus spp.)

Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)

Sardine (Harengula spp.)

Scallops (Pecten spp.)

Shrimp and prawns (various species)

Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)

White bass (Morone chrysops)

Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)



Species lower in thiaminase

Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)

Atlantic hake (Merluccius bilinearis)

Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)

Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)

Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)

Brown trout (Salmo trutta)

Catfish (Ictalurus and related spp)

Cisco (Coregonus spp.)

Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)

Flounder / sole (Pleuronectes and related spp.)

Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)

Hake (Urophycis spp)

Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)

Mullet (Mugilidae spp)

Poecilids (Guppies, platies, mollies)

Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius spp.)

Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)

Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)

Worms (Lumbricus spp)

Silversides confusion – many aquarists feed frozen “silversides” to their aquarium animals. True silversides (Atherinids) are low in thiaminase. Many fish food manufacturers use other fish species and call them “silversides”. Some of those fish are actually smelts or sardines and are high in thiaminase. Of five products on the market that were looked at, only one contained actual silversides (Rowlett, 2017). True silversides will have two dorsal fins (the first one may lie close to the body). The smelts have an adipose fin and a single dorsal fin (like trout do).

Jay

Of course attaching a photo now, he’s with a clown fish and lawnmower blenny.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Agree on jay’s mention on this ear and also can be bacterial
As you know- they are messy housekeepers and assure nitrate is not elevated as well as ammonia

 

[parker067]

Agree on jay’s mention on this ear and also can be bacterial
As you know- they are messy housekeepers and assure nitrate is not elevated as well as ammonia

Of course is there any way to treat the redness could it be an injury or from an infection?

 

[vetteguy53081]

With eels and sharks, often bacterial
Can’t say if so but general cure is often a safe treatment for them

 

[parker067]

With eels and sharks, often bacterial
Can’t say if so but general cure is often a safe treatment for them

Okay sounds good I have some general cure in case of emergency. I really appreciate all the help!

 

[lion king]

In regards to thiaminese poisoning, access your diet and make adjustment. So many foods that eel may eat will have thiaminese, so limiting as best you can. Buy human grade seafood fresh when possible and freeze in small batches, use within recommend best timeframe. Using these seafoods within their recommended time will maintain an optimum nutritional level. Many eels lack proper fats so include a fatty fish like salmon, mussels have a good amount of vitamin B1.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Of course attaching a photo now, he’s with a clown fish and lawnmower blenny.

Sorry - I saw a typo on my post - I wrote "thiaminase is really a poison", what I meant was that it ISN'T really a poison....

So - I just wanted to rule out some sort of an injury from another fish, but that seems less likely seeing the new photo and the fish you have it in with.

Is the eel still feeding well?
If so, I would just watch it for now.

Jay

 

[parker067]

Sorry - I saw a typo on my post - I wrote "thiaminase is really a poison", what I meant was that it ISN'T really a poison....

So - I just wanted to rule out some sort of an injury from another fish, but that seems less likely seeing the new photo and the fish you have it in with.

Is the eel still feeding well?
If so, I would just watch it for now.

Jay

I attempted to feed him some fresh salmon that I just bought but when I came to check on him he was swimming erratically he swam to the top of the tank kept his head out of water then sank back and rolled on his back until he partially hid himself in the rock work. At this rate I feel it could be a neurological issue caused by him injuring his head.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I attempted to feed him some fresh salmon that I just bought but when I came to check on him he was swimming erratically he swam to the top of the tank kept his head out of water then sank back and rolled on his back until he partially hid himself in the rock work. At this rate I feel it could be a neurological issue caused by him injuring his head.

Yes - it does look like an injury, I just couldn't think of how it could have happened......

Jay

 

[parker067]

Yes - it does look like an injury, I just couldn't think of how it could have happened......

Jay

The only thing that I can think of is that it may have injured it’s head on the rocks as he was digging.

 

[littlefoxx]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Can you take another picture under white lights, it is difficult to see anything under blue lights.
How long have you had the eel?
What other fish are in with it?

Thiaminase isn't really a poison, it is an enzyme that is found in some seafoods that breaks down Thiamin (vitamin B1) causing the fish to become deficient. Here is a write-up I did on the topic:

Thiaminase​

Thiaminase is an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1). In high enough concentrations in food, thiaminase will create thiamin deficient diets in fish. This is a common, yet serious problem with predatory fish that are fed feeder goldfish, as goldfish are very high in thiaminase. Lionfish, piranha and oscars cichlids were commonly fed all-goldfish diets by home aquarists. Health issues in their fish were then very common; fatty liver disease in lionfish, pica in piranha (where they eat each other to try to get more thiamin) and HLLE in oscars. Fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase can be supplemented with thiamin. Conversely, aquarists can avoid feeding fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase.


The actual impact of thiaminase on a fish’s diet depends on three factors:

What proportion of thiaminase-containing food is fed to the fish
What the concentration of thiaminase is in the food item
How much vitamin B1 is already present in the food



The following is a partial list of seafoods that contain and don’t contain thiaminase:



Species high in thiaminase

Anchovy (Engraulis sp.)

Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)

Capelin (Mallotus villosus)

Carp (Cyprinus carpio)

Clams (family Veneridae)

Goldfish (Carassius auratus)

Lobster (Homarus americanus)

Menhaden (Brevoortia spp.)

Minnows (Cyprinids)

Mussels (Mytilus spp.)

Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)

Sardine (Harengula spp.)

Scallops (Pecten spp.)

Shrimp and prawns (various species)

Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)

White bass (Morone chrysops)

Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)



Species lower in thiaminase

Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)

Atlantic hake (Merluccius bilinearis)

Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)

Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)

Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)

Brown trout (Salmo trutta)

Catfish (Ictalurus and related spp)

Cisco (Coregonus spp.)

Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)

Flounder / sole (Pleuronectes and related spp.)

Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)

Hake (Urophycis spp)

Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)

Mullet (Mugilidae spp)

Poecilids (Guppies, platies, mollies)

Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius spp.)

Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)

Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)

Worms (Lumbricus spp)

Silversides confusion – many aquarists feed frozen “silversides” to their aquarium animals. True silversides (Atherinids) are low in thiaminase. Many fish food manufacturers use other fish species and call them “silversides”. Some of those fish are actually smelts or sardines and are high in thiaminase. Of five products on the market that were looked at, only one contained actual silversides (Rowlett, 2017). True silversides will have two dorsal fins (the first one may lie close to the body). The smelts have an adipose fin and a single dorsal fin (like trout do).

Jay

Out of curiosity do you know the brands that use actual silversides? My two eels love them but seeing this Im a little nervous they are not true silversides

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Out of curiosity do you know the brands that use actual silversides? My two eels love them but seeing this Im a little nervous they are not true silversides

Joe Rowlett wrote about it:

A Brief Word On Silversides…

Odds are, if you’re at all familiar with silversides, it’s from having fed their defrosted corpses to a larger carnivore. But while they may be little more

reefs.com

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Out of curiosity do you know the brands that use actual silversides? My two eels love them but seeing this Im a little nervous they are not true silversides

 

[littlefoxx]

Joe Rowlett wrote about it:

A Brief Word On Silversides…

Odds are, if you’re at all familiar with silversides, it’s from having fed their defrosted corpses to a larger carnivore. But while they may be little more

reefs.com

Jay

Cool thank you guys!! I use the ocean nutrition so thats good its on the list

 

[littlefoxx]

Op hows your eel doing??

 

[Gtinnel]

Cool thank you guys!! I use the ocean nutrition so thats good its on the list

According to the article Jay linked it says ocean nutritions is a freshwater smelt and not an actual silverside. Of the brands mentioned it was only the San Francisco Bay Brand that was actually silversides.

 

[littlefoxx]

According to the article Jay linked it says ocean nutritions is a freshwater smelt and not an actual silverside. Of the brands mentioned it was only the San Francisco Bay Brand that was actually silversides.

Oh must have missed that part, thank you! I have rods predator food the eels like too they just get super excited about the silversides. Ill get them real ones