Red planet is dying

[Cherie cook]

I've always heard that too, but I've killed at least three frags of it, so I don't even bother anymore.

I'm able to keep pretty demanding SPS alive, but I can kill a birdsnest faster than anyone, so maybe Red Planet is just too easy for me to keep it alive...

That’s so weird...birdsnest is another one I can’t seem to keep alive! Yet I have several acropora and Millies that do just fine!

 

[blstravler]

Can anyone point me to the research that found zero nitrate and phosphates kill SPS?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Can anyone point me to the research that found zero nitrate and phosphates kill SPS?

Search “why are my sps dying” and you’ll see the common denominator is zero to ultra low no3/po4

 

[wareagle]

Can anyone point me to the research that found zero nitrate and phosphates kill SPS?

Phosphorus is essential to all living organisms.

Checking your browser - reCAPTCHA

The concentrations of dissolved inorganic nutrients in our LN/LP treatment (~ 0.7 μM/~0.006 μM) suggest that at measured nitrate concentrations < 0.7 μM the impact of skewed NP ratio becomes less pronounced. In our experiments, a phosphate concentration of ~ 0.3 μM at a N to P ratio of 22:1 yielded an overall healthy phenotype. Accordingly, it is likely that the absolute N to P ratio becomes also less critical for the proper functioning of the symbionts when phosphate concentrations exceed a vital supply threshold (> 0.3 μM), even when the symbionts are rapidly proliferating.
In contrast, a phosphate concentration of ~ 0.18 μM at a ~ 10-fold higher N to P ratio (211:1) yielded a bleached phenotype with the remaining symbionts showing signs of stress (Fv/Fm < 0.4). Therefore, the P-threshold at which corals can become stressed in the presence of high N concentrations can be as high as 0.18 μM. Effects of P deficiency can be expected to become worse if supply from other sources such as particulate food or internal reserves, is low.

 

[Karl M]

You tank is still in it infancy, So go slow with raising the nutrient levels.
You may want to also start dosing amino acids which you also can target feed your Corals.

What are you currently feeding fish and Acros?

 

[Debbie12]

Can anyone point me to the research that found zero nitrate and phosphates kill SPS?

I've been wondering the same thing. Then last night, because we are feverishly trying to reach out to all sources, came across an episode of AskBRS. It doesn't give research so much as an explanation I almost understand. I thought I'd share the link anyway.

 

[Debbie12]

You tank is still in it infancy, So go slow with raising the nutrient levels.
You may want to also start dosing amino acids which you also can target feed your Corals.

What are you currently feeding fish and Acros?

We are going to start amino acids today. We feed the fish Prime Reef by Ocean Nutrition and are about to start with an undetermined pellet in the newly set up auto feeders. The corals were getting weekly target feeding of Reef-Roids and then Sally's frozen krill cut up for the bigger guys. Now all the SPS is getting daily Reef-Roids. Open to any suggestions you may have. Thank you.

 

[7237689918]

We are going to start amino acids today. We feed the fish Prime Reef by Ocean Nutrition and are about to start with an undetermined pellet in the newly set up auto feeders. The corals were getting weekly target feeding of Reef-Roids and then Sally's frozen krill cut up for the bigger guys. Now all the SPS is getting daily Reef-Roids. Open to any suggestions you may have. Thank you.

It seems there is mixed info on this, from what I have gathered. But do SPS’s gain anything from Reef Roids?

 

[LARedstickreefer]

It seems there is mixed info on this, from what I have gathered. But do SPS’s gain anything from Reef Roids?

Probably when they break down in your tank.

I add them just as a means to add nutrients when they break down. I do have a porcelain crab that comes out and goes to town on them...

 

[blstravler]

Phosphorus is essential to all living organisms.

Checking your browser - reCAPTCHA

The concentrations of dissolved inorganic nutrients in our LN/LP treatment (~ 0.7 μM/~0.006 μM) suggest that at measured nitrate concentrations < 0.7 μM the impact of skewed NP ratio becomes less pronounced. In our experiments, a phosphate concentration of ~ 0.3 μM at a N to P ratio of 22:1 yielded an overall healthy phenotype. Accordingly, it is likely that the absolute N to P ratio becomes also less critical for the proper functioning of the symbionts when phosphate concentrations exceed a vital supply threshold (> 0.3 μM), even when the symbionts are rapidly proliferating.
In contrast, a phosphate concentration of ~ 0.18 μM at a ~ 10-fold higher N to P ratio (211:1) yielded a bleached phenotype with the remaining symbionts showing signs of stress (Fv/Fm < 0.4). Therefore, the P-threshold at which corals can become stressed in the presence of high N concentrations can be as high as 0.18 μM. Effects of P deficiency can be expected to become worse if supply from other sources such as particulate food or internal reserves, is low.

Thank you for the link to the article!

Just my 2 cents....

I read the entire article - VERY interesting that the results of HN/HP in comparison to LN/HP were almost identical....

"Corals exposed to the imbalanced, HN/LP conditions, displayed a smaller polyp size and a bleached appearance that closely resembled the phenotype observed in low nutrient water (LN/LP) (Fig. 1, Fig. 2a). In contrast, the corals kept under LN/HP imbalanced nutrient levels showed a similar phenotype to the nutrient replete (HN/HP) treatment. The bleached appearance of the polyps from HN/LP conditions was associated with low numbers of zooxanthellae in the tentacle tissue (Fig. 1, Fig. 2, Table 1), similar to the low nutrient LN/LP treatment. In contrast, the symbiont numbers in the tissue of LN/HP exposed corals were comparable to those of corals from nutrient replete (HN/HP) conditions"

What I think we all need to be very mindful of is we sometimes read to far into things - like the above article - I'm not saying it is wrong let me explain....

We all introduce vastly different variables into our tanks - i.e. Dosing v CaRX; LED v MH v T5; Feeding Corals v not Feeding Corals ; High Bio load v low Bio load, Refugium v No Refugium; Amino Acids v No Amino Acids; true live rock v man made rock - the list goes on and on. We introduce so many variables - but yet many of us only look at the presence of N an P as the indicator of poor health of a tank and it's coral inhabitants (sometimes just a single coral) . When you look at the above study they only used two supplements (Coral Colours, Red Sea) and did partial water changes with "freshly made artificial seawater using the Pro-Reef salt mixture (Tropic Marin)." They had no mention of type of light or the amount of the dose they used (unless I missed it) - i.e. all the variables we introduce. Also no feeding was done to protect the integrity of the experiment - again another variable we all introduce. So if we as hobbyist are introducing so many other variables how do we know one or more of those variables don't have additional positive or negative impact to high/Low N&P ? Unless we are replicating the exact conditions of the experiments within the study's we read we are not comparing apples to apples. We are all just making assumptions off of excepted/popular opinion on R2R thaN & P are the cause of poor coral health. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but I also don't think people running low (0) N should be told that is a problem when something is wrong with a single coral in their tank. When the above study clearly says otherwise. I'm not saying you don't need a small measure of P (< 1) - but the variables we all introduce have impact to our tank inhabitants and unless we fully understand how those variables relate positively or negatively on High/Low N&P we are only all guesstimating what we think the ultimate solution is for keeping corals in out tanks -or- why some are more successful then others.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Science or not, most people would tell you that their troubles went away once they started getting some nitrates and phosphates going.

 

[Taylor S.]

Frag one of the tips or a few!!

 

[Debbie12]

Science or not, most people would tell you that their troubles went away once they started getting some nitrates and phosphates going.

We're trying. Turned off the skimmer. Overfeeding the ungrateful fish that persist in playing with their food instead of making poop. Overfeeding the coral. And still the nitrates and phosphates are coming in at a great big goose egg. Afraid to dose them ( nitrates and phosphates) with the results of we've had from the alk dosing. None of the other SPS appear to be stressing yet. Each one gets a daily squint inspection.

 

[Debbie12]

Frag one of the tips or a few!!

I considered that, but one of the reefers suggested that would certainly increase the stress to the point it couldn't recover. So I'm holding out until I'm sure I can't turn it around.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

We're trying. Turned off the skimmer. Overfeeding the ungrateful fish that persist in playing with their food instead of making poop. Overfeeding the coral. And still the nitrates and phosphates are coming in at a great big goose egg. Afraid to dose them ( nitrates and phosphates) with the results of we've had from the alk dosing. None of the other SPS appear to be stressing yet. Each one gets a daily squint inspection.

Give it time. It takes time for food to break down and be converted into nitrates.

You’ll see them show up in a week or two. Just keep feeding and waiting.

 

[Debbie12]

Give it time. It takes time for food to break down and be converted into nitrates.

You’ll see them show up in a week or two. Just keep feeding and waiting.

Thank you. I didn't have a timeline.

 

[cain720]

I had very similar issues with my first acropora.

I decided to remove my refugium, and I've noticed way better coloration and resilience to alkalinity swings. It's 10x easier to balance nutrients by adjusting a skimmer and feedings when a refugium isn't in the equation.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Thank you. I didn't have a timeline.

And then it’ll take some time, a few more weeks, to notice any difference. Hardest thing about this hobby is waiting.

 

[Karl M]

We are going to start amino acids today. We feed the fish Prime Reef by Ocean Nutrition and are about to start with an undetermined pellet in the newly set up auto feeders. The corals were getting weekly target feeding of Reef-Roids and then Sally's frozen krill cut up for the bigger guys. Now all the SPS is getting daily Reef-Roids. Open to any suggestions you may have. Thank you.

I feed a pretty diverse selection that I rotate daily in small portions Except for the frozen food which I feed a little bit more liberal spaced out over about a half an hour in the evening

For dry,
Reef Nutritions TDO or NYOS sweet aloe
Dry seaweed red and green

Frozen,
Rod,s Food (my first choice) , Ocean Nutritions Reef Formula One, LRS Herbivore Frenzy.

As I stated earlier and I cannot stress it enough, go slow and moderation is the key.

Let’s bring some more heavy hitters in for more insight...@Reefsquad

 

[Debbie12]

I feed a pretty diverse selection that I rotate daily in small portions Except for the frozen food which I feed a little bit more liberal spaced out over about a half an hour in the evening

For dry,
Reef Nutritions TDO or NYOS sweet aloe
Dry seaweed red and green

Frozen,
Rod,s Food (my first choice) , Ocean Nutritions Reef Formula One, LRS Herbivore Frenzy.

As I stated earlier and I cannot stress it enough, go slow and moderation is the key.

Let’s bring some more heavy hitters in for more insight...@Reefsquad

I have just heard about Rod's Food and have it on my shopping list.
I forgot to list the dry food we feed.
Ocean Nutrition's Prime Reef Flakes once a day
Spirulina 20 once a day