Red Planet issue

[sculpin01]

Have you not tried Interceptor yet? I just read again your entire thread and don't see that you tried that. I'm glad I did read it again because I apologize for missing that the parasite is a mite, not a tegastes copepod like what I was dealing with. (I was basing all my earlier recommendations on my experiences with tegastes "bugs," not mites). With either parasite, it would probably make sense to try Interceptor before trying any of the other drugs (KCl, malathion or ivermectin) since we know a dosage that works at least for Red Bugs. (Interceptor can also be used for skin mites on dogs so we know it is good for at least some mites). But now that I realize it is a mite, if it was me, and Interceptor didn't work, I would go right to Ivomec as @sculpin01 has been suggesting. I've used Ivomec for years to kill microscopic burrowing mites (knemidocoptes) in parakeets and they are easily eliminated with just 1/5 of a drop placed on the skin. Of course it is a different mite, but Ivomec is certainly a drug of choice for mites. Sorry I didn't catch this earlier.

FWIW, the dosage of Ivomec in the article that Sculpin01 mentioned was about 10X more concentrated than the dosage that I used for telegastes which didn't kill them. However, my weaker dosage was plenty to paralyze worms, including Bearded Fire Worms which makes me think the article's dosage of 2 ml/2.6 gal is a whopping dose and perhaps should only be used as a dip or bath and could be potentially dangerous to use in a main tank. ??

Ivermectin in the main tank is a big no-no. I have accidentally introduced it and it killed pretty much all inverts with the exception of acoels. I use it as a bath for 1-2 hours, followed by a rinse in sea water, followed by 24 hours in a holding tank running a large amount of activated carbon. I would only use it in the main tank as a last resort after removing all inverts (especially snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.). It has an approximately 8 month half life in water vs ~8 hours for interceptor. Dangerous stuff but very effective. All waste water containing it needs to be cloroxed for 24 hours or more, as it is very toxic in local waterways.

 

[sculpin01]

Corals seem to be insensitive to the ivermectin for the 1-2 hour bath at the concentration in that article. I have not had any losses from it. That concentration is also very effective at killing coral boring spionid worms, btw.

 

[Syntax1235]

Thanks for the information…. Can bathing corals in ivermectin weekly be used to eliminate the black bugs in the display?

 

[sculpin01]

If you're having success with KCl, I would use that. Much safer and easier disposal.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Can bathing corals in ivermectin weekly be used to eliminate the black bugs in the display?

That is the million-dollar question. I am guessing nobody knows the answer to that for sure but in theory it could be possible. But, if we think about a parasite that we know more about, like Red Bugs, what do you think is the likelihood of eliminating them without treating the entire tank? If anyone has done this with just weekly dips, please chime in. IMO, it would be a very long and uncertain route to take.

So, my first thought was, "Yes, I would treat the whole tank." But then I realized that probably at least 3 treatments would be needed because of the eggs and three 100% water changes and working with a "dangerous" chemical might be a bit much. (Remember, besides the disposal issues mentioned by @sculpin01, Ivomec can be absorbed through the skin so you should wear long gloves).

I just deleted a long write-up on how I would perform the whole-tank treatment after changing my mind based on the need for multiple treatments. But if you ever get desperate and need suggestions on how to do it, let me know.

Hopefully the weekly dips will work for you, and I agree with @sculpin01 about using KCl (instead of the more toxic ivermectin) if that works.

 

[sculpin01]

That is the million-dollar question. I am guessing nobody knows the answer to that for sure but in theory it could be possible. But, if we think about a parasite that we know more about, like Red Bugs, what do you think is the likelihood of eliminating them without treating the entire tank? If anyone has done this with just weekly dips, please chime in. IMO, it would be a very long and uncertain route to take.

So, my first thought was, "Yes, I would treat the whole tank." But then I realized that probably at least 3 treatments would be needed because of the eggs and three 100% water changes and working with a "dangerous" chemical might be a bit much. (Remember, besides the disposal issues mentioned by @sculpin01, Ivomec can be absorbed through the skin so you should wear long gloves).

I just deleted a long write-up on how I would perform the whole-tank treatment after changing my mind based on the need for multiple treatments. But if you ever get desperate and need suggestions on how to do it, let me know.

Hopefully the weekly dips will work for you, and I agree with @sculpin01 about using KCl (instead of the more toxic ivermectin) if that works.

The danger is less to the human administering it than to the invertebrate life in the tank. It is very lethal to inverts. Combine that with a very long half life and high solubility and you can see how in-tank treatment can have potential short and long term sequelae. The remedy is water changes and copious activated carbon over a period of weeks. Thus, my desire to verify that it works outside of the tank prior to embarking on full tank treatment.

 

[Syntax1235]

I don’t think an in tank treatment of ivermectin is something that I am interested in doing. I’d rather not use intercepter, I purchased around 50 lbs of live rock from TBSW and KP and I’m enjoying watching all the critters. However, intercepter may be necessary if I hope to rid my tank of these bugs.

The corals I dipped in kcl are recovering in the display. I removed them all from the rocks and placed them on frag racks attached to the front glass for easier examination. I have seen around a half dozen bugs still moving around, so the intercepter dip was somewhat effective; however, a 4% solution for a 20 minutes soak was not tolerated well by a few corals. I have not lost any, but I have had to frag tips off of a couple.

I’m going to let the corals recover this week and try another round of dips this coming weekend. I’m not sure if I’m going to use kcl or ivermectin. The corals did not tolerate the concentration of kcl that it took to kill most of the bugs in 20 minutes. Maybe one more time in kcl?? I do have the ivermectin on hand, and I have a 10 gallon tank with a phosban 150 that can be filled with carbon, so maybe the ivermectin makes more sense?

thanks for all the advice. I’ve got a long way to go.

 

[sculpin01]

You can honestly dip KCl daily with minimal sequelae. I probably would do every other day KCl dips. 40 g/gallon for 5 minutes. It will have a much greater chance of killing the bugs.

 

[Syntax1235]

You can honestly dip KCl daily with minimal sequelae. I probably would do every other day KCl dips. 40 g/gallon for 5 minutes. It will have a much greater chance of killing the bugs.

That’s roughly 1% solution. In my tests, these things can handle 5% for up to 15 minutes with around a 90% kill rate; however, it is rough on some frags.

You are saying that 1% dips every 48 hours could/would yield a cumulative effect?

 

[sculpin01]

My point was that if you are killing all of the mites with each dip, you will likely end up killing them all eventually.

I have trouble getting the 40 g/gallon into solution. How are you doing 5 times that? Heating and stirring?

 

[Syntax1235]

My point was that if you are killing all of the mites with each dip, you will likely end up killing them all eventually.

I have trouble getting the 40 g/gallon into solution. How are you doing 5 times that? Heating and stirring?

40g/gallon equals roughly 10 grams a liter or 1 gram per 100ml. I was able to mix 5 grams in 100ml using food grade kcl with just a spoon, it actually dissolved quickly. Maybe my math is wrong?

I did a 10 minute dip in 1% solution and it didn’t kill the bugs. These things are tough. The 5% dip killed most bugs but some corals didn’t come out looking good.

 

[sculpin01]

You dissolved that much in seawater or RODI?

 

[Syntax1235]

You dissolved that much in seawater or RODI?

Seawater. My tank is at 35ppm.

 

[sculpin01]

I'll have to try that. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Syntax1235]

Tried my first ivermectin bath this afternoon. I put three gallons of water in a ten gallon aquarium with a heater and air stone. I used a tad over 2ml of ivermectin and let the corals sit for two hours. Some corals slimed a little but several of them had polyp extension throughout the entire bath.

After the bath I removed the corals into containers of saltwater, and then cleaned out the ten gallon tank, and filled it with fresh salt from my display. I used a phosban 150 with carbon and let that run for about an hour.

The corals are back in the display on frag racks and look good. I don’t see any bugs moving around.

This treatment is a little task heavy, but seems to be very gentle on the corals. I’m not sure how many of these bath treatments I will have to perform…. We will see.

 

[Syntax1235]

48 hours after treatment and I saw more bugs moving around. Time for another 2 hour bath.

 

[Dr. Jim]

If you keep putting the bathed corals back in the main tank and are seeing more bugs after just 48 hours I wonder if that strategy will work. You might be fighting an endless battle. Any chance you have a non-infected tank you can put them in after bathing? That could take the place of treating the entire tank, but I guess we don't know how long it would take for eggs to hatch and newly-hatched to die in the main tank.

 

[Syntax1235]

I agree. I took a rock out and it was absolutely infested with the bugs. This bathing is futile. I think the only hope to save the tank is by using interceptor. I’ve read that interceptor doesn’t work, if that is accurate I’m going to have to break the tank down and cook all the rock. My frustration level is pretty high at this point. The realization that I’m not going to beat these guys by dipping is hitting me.

I wonder if my 40 breeder can hold all my fish: Mimic tang, kole tang, scopas tang, 3 bartlett anthias, 6 chromis, fire fish, fox face, red csrdinal, and a deresa clam. Tangs are all around 3-3.5 inches.

I could use some advice on how to keep everything alive for months while the rock recycles.

This tank was designed for acropora, that’s what I want to keep and grow. I do have the option of keeping a softy tank, or maybe lps. The bugs don’t seem to be bothering the two lps.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I would definitely try Interceptor if you haven't tried that, perhaps at double the dosage recommended for Red Bugs. If that doesn't work, then maybe it's time to consider treating the entire tank with Ivomec. That's what I would do. Seems like a better option than "sterilizing" the rock. (You'd have to sterilize more than just the rock, meaning everything: all equipment, the glass tank, etc.) How many gallons is your system? You used about 10 times the dosage of Ivomec that I used to stun/kill Fire worms which makes me think that you might get by with a much lower dose. If it was me, I'd play around with dosages and baths to find the lowest dosage that works. I would start with half the dosage you used; then, if that works, cut it in half again, etc.

If you decide to go this route with the whole-tank ivomec, you may need to be prepared to repeat it weekly, 3 times. OR, perhaps a better idea, since it has such a long half-life, try the lowest effective dosage (or perhaps even a little less than that) and leave it in the tank without a water change for 3-4 weeks. (A slightly "lower dose" may work for a long term treatment but not for a relatively short bath). Maybe you can use your other tank to house as many inverts as you can salvage. (If you do this, wear long rubber gloves, like those sold for handling rock, to keep the treated water off your skin).

 

[Syntax1235]

I would definitely try Interceptor if you haven't tried that, perhaps at double the dosage recommended for Red Bugs. If that doesn't work, then maybe it's time to consider treating the entire tank with Ivomec. That's what I would do. Seems like a better option than "sterilizing" the rock. (You'd have to sterilize more than just the rock, meaning everything: all equipment, the glass tank, etc.) How many gallons is your system? You used about 10 times the dosage of Ivomec that I used to stun/kill Fire worms which makes me think that you might get by with a much lower dose. If it was me, I'd play around with dosages and baths to find the lowest dosage that works. I would start with half the dosage you used; then, if that works, cut it in half again, etc.

If you decide to go this route with the whole-tank ivomec, you may need to be prepared to repeat it weekly, 3 times. OR, perhaps a better idea, since it has such a long half-life, try the lowest effective dosage (or perhaps even a little less than that) and leave it in the tank without a water change for 3-4 weeks. (A slightly "lower dose" may work for a long term treatment but not for a relatively short bath). Maybe you can use your other tank to house as many inverts as you can salvage. (If you do this, wear long rubber gloves, like those sold for handling rock, to keep the treated water off your skin).

I haven’t tried interceptor, I’m still waiting on my order from Canada. Once I get the interceptor I’ll give it a shot.

Will ivermectin kill the fish?