Red Sea Trace Colors dosing

[Reefahholic]

Seeing all those numbers is making my head hurt, LOL!!! I believe BRS did a video on figuring this out. Personally, I just add 1 ml daily of A,B,C, and D. When I start to send ICP test out I will dial it in more.

Sounds about perfect for your system. Are the Trace Colors lacking Sr and Ba? I'm assuming they are due to this being in their Part A Calcium+ Supplement.

 

[Billldg]

I dos BRS alk and cal and use HW Marine reefer mix, the salt has trace elements but I’m not really sure of my tank usage, I used Red Sea a,b,c, and d to supplement trace elements that were being used between water changes. I haven’t sent off a icp test yet because I have been dealing with bryopsis and using reef flux, so I already knew my nitrates and phosphates were way off, now that I am done dealing with that and steadily bringing down my nitrates I will send a test off to get a baseline. From that point I probably won’t use Red Sea as I feel that is more generalized, you aren’t adding specific trace elements, you are adding a group of trace elements in 4 bottles.

 

[aarbutina]

It's now 26ml daily. Tank is currently using 20 ppm CA every 3.6 days. I'll call it every 4 days to error on the side of safety. Will probably under dose it too. wink wink. Maybe dose about 0.8mL daily or 2.5mL every 4 days.

Good stuff. I'm so a similar rounding when I dose Trace Colors. I normally round up to the nearest day and then dose the stated amount. I'd like to eventually get these set up on a doser so I don't need to keep remembering when it is time to dose, even though I have a calendar reminder.

 

[Reefahholic]

I dos BRS alk and cal and use HW Marine reefer mix, the salt has trace elements but I’m not really sure of my tank usage, I used Red Sea a,b,c, and d to supplement trace elements that were being used between water changes. I haven’t sent off a icp test yet because I have been dealing with bryopsis and using reef flux, so I already knew my nitrates and phosphates were way off, now that I am done dealing with that and steadily bringing down my nitrates I will send a test off to get a baseline. From that point I probably won’t use Red Sea as I feel that is more generalized, you aren’t adding specific trace elements, you are adding a group of trace elements in 4 bottles.

What's in the HW marine reefer mix?

 

[Reefahholic]

Good stuff. I'm so a similar rounding when I dose Trace Colors. I normally round up to the nearest day and then dose the stated amount. I'd like to eventually get these set up on a doser so I don't need to keep remembering when it is time to dose, even though I have a calendar reminder.

I plan to do the same. I run a GHL and tried to run a jebao pump. It's like driving a Mercedes and then a scooter. So i'll likely get another GHL.

GHL can automatically dose 150x a day. It has 4 different speeds. Slower for more accuracy. It can dose down to 0.1mL which is perfect for this. It has Fill levels and calculates the remaining days left on the solution. You can set a minimal alarm. They are great. I've had two so far without issues. A slight pain to get up and running, but I make sure mine is connected through the app, wifi, remotely, etc.

 

[Billldg]

What's in the HW marine reefer mix?

Currently at work, so I can’t take a picture, but trace elements r added to it like other higher end salts.

 

[Reefahholic]

Currently at work, so I can’t take a picture, but trace elements r added to it like other higher end salts.

No worries. Just wondering. Haven't seen it before. Always good to know what's out there.

 

[aarbutina]

I dos BRS alk and cal and use HW Marine reefer mix, the salt has trace elements but I’m not really sure of my tank usage, I used Red Sea a,b,c, and d to supplement trace elements that were being used between water changes. I haven’t sent off a icp test yet because I have been dealing with bryopsis and using reef flux, so I already knew my nitrates and phosphates were way off, now that I am done dealing with that and steadily bringing down my nitrates I will send a test off to get a baseline. From that point I probably won’t use Red Sea as I feel that is more generalized, you aren’t adding specific trace elements, you are adding a group of trace elements in 4 bottles.

The idea with the Trace Color A,B,C,and D from Red Sea is that they are replacing all trace elements, or the trace elements that or most likely be to consumed, not just a specific trace element. If you buy into their marketing they have done studies to understand who quickly each trace element is consumed in relation to calcium. The idea is that this are consumed at a fix rate and ratio. So dosing all 4 relative to the amount of CA you use will maintain the levels of all trace elements appropriately (at least according to Red Sea).

While you are correct that high end salt mixes are supplemented with trace elements, where you are slightly off is that all small mixes are actually composed of major, minor, and trace elements. The ratios may change from brand to brand but any quality salt mix should have trace element as part of its make up.

That brings us to the next point, why dose trace elements at all. Well it is basic chemistry and math. Or corals use element, major, minor, and trace, to grow. As the corals grow the level of each of those elements goes down in the sea water around them. If allowed to continue to deplete without replenishing the availability of the elements will eventually become rate limiting to grow. Now the question becomes, can’t I just do water changes to replenish my trace elements? The true answer is kinda, but not to the original starting level unless you do a 100% water change or you do a water change with sea water that has elevated elemental levels above what you started with in the first place. And this is where the math comes in... let’s say you have 100 gallons for water with 10 molecules of X element per gallon (so 1000 Xs in your tank). Over the course of some period of time 20 of those Xs are consumed. Now you have 980 Xs per 100 gallons or 9.8 X/gal. Now let’s say you do a 20% water change with new water of the exact same make up as the original was 10 X/gal. You remove 20 gallons of water that is at 9.8 X/gal and still have 80 gallons at 9.8 X/gal (784 total Xs). You now add the fresh 20 gallons (200 Xs total in that). I’m that 100 gallons you now have 984 total Xs or 9.84 X/gallon. As you can see there is very minimal impact on the level of the depleted element. While this example is extreme the goal is just to demonstrate the benefit of also dosing trace element specifically and not only relying on water changes which will never bring you up to the original starting level unless you do a 100% water change.

 

[Reefahholic]

The idea with the Trace Color A,B,C,and D from Red Sea is that they are replacing all trace elements, or the trace elements that or most likely be to consumed, not just a specific trace element. If you buy into their marketing they have done studies to understand who quickly each trace element is consumed in relation to calcium. The idea is that this are consumed at a fix rate and ratio. So dosing all 4 relative to the amount of CA you use will maintain the levels of all trace elements appropriately (at least according to Red Sea).

While you are correct that high end salt mixes are supplemented with trace elements, where you are slightly off is that all small mixes are actually composed of major, minor, and trace elements. The ratios may change from brand to brand but any quality salt mix should have trace element as part of its make up.

That brings us to the next point, why dose trace elements at all. Well it is basic chemistry and math. Or corals use element, major, minor, and trace, to grow. As the corals grow the level of each of those elements goes down in the sea water around them. If allowed to continue to deplete without replenishing the availability of the elements will eventually become rate limiting to grow. Now the question becomes, can’t I just do water changes to replenish my trace elements? The true answer is kinda, but not to the original starting level unless you do a 100% water change or you do a water change with sea water that has elevated elemental levels above what you started with in the first place. And this is where the math comes in... let’s say you have 100 gallons for water with 10 molecules of X element per gallon (so 1000 Xs in your tank). Over the course of some period of time 20 of those Xs are consumed. Now you have 980 Xs per 100 gallons or 9.8 X/gal. Now let’s say you do a 20% water change with new water of the exact same make up as the original was 10 X/gal. You remove 20 gallons of water that is at 9.8 X/gal and still have 80 gallons at 9.8 X/gal (784 total Xs). You now add the fresh 20 gallons (200 Xs total in that). I’m that 100 gallons you now have 984 total Xs or 9.84 X/gallon. As you can see there is very minimal impact on the level of the depleted element. While this example is extreme the goal is just to demonstrate the benefit of also dosing trace element specifically and not only relying on water changes which will never bring you up to the original starting level unless you do a 100% water change.

Yes, exactly. Most of us don’t. Especially those of us going after stability with small water changes. Then add a tank full of growing acropora to the equation. It doesn’t take very long and these colonies begin to drink heavily and basically run on fumes which stunts growth. You have got to replenish the elements. Just as you would dosing 2-part. Welcome to advanced reefing!

 

[Billldg]

All this math is still hurting my head, lol!!! I agree, trace elements do need to be added to maintain proper levels. The biggest problem is that no 2 tanks are the same, no 2 tanks consume elements the same which is why I will get more serious when I start sending ICP test off so I know what my tank is consuming and at what rate. If the Red Sea trace elements keep it in check then I will continue using it, but if I need to start dosing some specific elements to maintain stability then that is where I will change.

 

[Reefahholic]

All this math is still hurting my head, lol!!! I agree, trace elements do need to be added to maintain proper levels. The biggest problem is that no 2 tanks are the same, no 2 tanks consume elements the same which is why I will get more serious when I start sending ICP test off so I know what my tank is consuming and at what rate. If the Red Sea trace elements keep it in check then I will continue using it, but if I need to start dosing some specific elements to maintain stability then that is where I will change.

According to Red Sea and their studies (which I haven’t seen) this should keep most levels in check as long as we’re dosing off the Calcium demand. I’ll be fine tuning my dosing by ICP testing. I’m not exactly sure about my “actual water volume.” I think it will be less than what I think it is. There is a way to figure out total water volume by tracking salinity % +/- of a know amount of RO added to your water volume. Either way, ICP should get us close.

 

[infinite0180]

Is trace really necessary with ESV? Randy has hypothesized on here many times that ESV already has balanced levels of minor and trace elements in the correct ratio and so does the manufacturer... i dose ESV and have been for months... last ICP looked pretty good... i guess there is a difference between “balancing” a two part and supplementing elements. In my mind supplementing means adding more than the normal amount in order to increase levels. Balancing on the other hand just means adding enough so that when cal and alk are taken up and replaced so is the rest of the stuff, thus not changing the ionic balance of seawater and driving it towards a brine solution. Get what i mean? Is red sea trace just their was of balancing their two part? If so im not sure its needed when dosing ESV... anybody else fallow me here?

 

[Reefahholic]

Is trace really necessary with ESV? Randy has hypothesized on here many times that ESV already has balanced levels of minor and trace elements in the correct ratio and so does the manufacturer... i dose ESV and have been for months... last ICP looked pretty good... i guess there is a difference between “balancing” a two part and supplementing elements. In my mind supplementing means adding more than the normal amount in order to increase levels. Balancing on the other hand just means adding enough so that when cal and alk are taken up and replaced so is the rest of the stuff, thus not changing the ionic balance of seawater and driving it towards a brine solution. Get what i mean? Is red sea trace just their was of balancing their two part? If so im not sure its needed when dosing ESV... anybody else fallow me here?

I’m following you bro. Very good question by the way. ESV is an ionically balanced 2-part that duplicates all the major, minor, and trace elements found in natural seawater in their correct ratios.

However, for high demand tanks such as acropora...certain elements may not keep up with demand. Over time, these elements would need to be checked and dosed back to the system. This is why ESV recommends daily additions of their “Transition Elements.” Iodine and Strontium are likely not being added in sufficient quantity and also need to be checked, and dosed back to the system.

I’ve had a few conversations with Bob Stark. I use ESV B-Ionic myself and it’s great stuff. It’s been solid for 25 years! We just need to keep an eye on high demand tanks and if certain elements become low or depleted...dose the appropriate amount back into the system.

 

[infinite0180]

I’m following you bro. Very good question by the way. ESV is an ionically balanced 2-part that duplicates all the major, minor, and trace elements found in natural seawater in their correct ratios.

However, for high demand tanks such as acropora...certain elements may not keep up with demand. Over time, these elements would need to be checked and dosed back to the system. This is why ESV recommends daily additions of their “Transition Elements.” Iodine and Strontium are likely not being added in sufficient quantity and also need to be checked, and dosed back to the system.

I’ve had a few conversations with Bob Stark. I use ESV B-Ionic myself and it’s great stuff. It’s been solid for 25 years! We just need to keep an eye on high demand tanks and if certain elements become low or depleted...dose the appropriate amount back into the system.

Thanks. Ive been dosing strictly ESV and my last ICP did show a few of the typical elements low. I was considering the trace colors as well but then decided against it as i couldnt find any info of people adding it with ESV. Maybe ill try it as well. I guess im just curious if red sea is just using the trace colors as their way of balancing the sodium bicarb and calcium chloride from part A and B of their foundation system? Or is the trace using higher concentrations in order to supplement instead? I guess they say to perform water changes as well so maybe they balance their system with water changes but dose trace in order to supplement corals... im looking to continue to use ESV as a balanced two part that leaves sea water behind after correcting for salinity, but i would also like to supplement the trace elements that my corals are taking up...

 

[Reefahholic]

Is red sea trace just their way of balancing their two part?

Can somebody email Read Sea and ask them this question?

My thoughts are that in one respect yes, but in another no. Here’s why...Red Sea is having us dose these elements back by way of Calcium demand. Which for me...is a better way to keep these elements in check. Red Sea apparently did tests based on Calcium consumption that shows how much of these elements are being used by the corals. If this is true and the evidence they have is on point, in my mind this is a great way to keep these levels in check. I’m sure they have made the products to where they would error a little on the weaker side so that a trace overdose will not occur.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thanks. Ive been dosing strictly ESV and my last ICP did show a few of the typical elements low. I was considering the trace colors as well but then decided against it as i couldnt find any info of people adding it with ESV. Maybe ill try it as well. I guess im just curious if red sea is just using the trace colors as their way of balancing the sodium bicarb and calcium chloride from part A and B of their foundation system? Or is the trace using higher concentrations in order to supplement instead? I guess they say to perform water changes as well so maybe they balance their system with water changes but dose trace in order to supplement corals... im looking to continue to use ESV as a balanced two part that leaves sea water behind after correcting for salinity, but i would also like to supplement the trace elements that my corals are taking up...

Same here man. We all want to add back exactly what’s needed. I believe some things can be boosted higher. Take Mag, Cal, & Alk for example. Most of us keep higher levels than what you would typically find in the ocean and it’s ok. It’s actually beneficial IMO. Then you look at elements like Iodine that can Nuke a tank if you shoot a little too high. So it’s all about range and which elements are safe at higher ranges. Or which elements can exceed a specific range and be beneficial. For example Battle Corals runs a salinity of 1.028 (I think) and he says his coral grows faster. Our range in the hobby is 1.025-1.026. I want to boost elements that help the corals, but at a minimal keep the levels from depletion.

 

[DeputyDog95]

I follow a simpler method as told by a Red Sea rep. Instead of relating it to your ppm increase, relate it to the amount of Ca you dose at a 1:10 ratio. 1 ml of trace to every 10 ml of Ca. (So basically just move the decimal left once and that's how much of each trace to dose)

Is this confirmed? I'm using the Red Sea's Alk and Ca. The directions online make my head hurt. If you are using Red Sea's Alk and Ca, is it as simple as 1/10th of your Ca dose? For example.... 20ml/day of Red Sea Ca would correspond to .02ml daily of the Red Sea trace elements?

On a side note, I think it's hard to compare Red Sea's liquid Ca product to to others as it's hyper concentrated. You typically end up dosing about 3x as much Alk as you do Ca with the Red Sea liquids.

 

[GoVols]

You dose based off Calcium demand. So really no need to test as long as Red Sea did good research on that.

Yep,
It’s based off how much that your reef intakes calcium in ppm per day.

Like if you stop dosing calcium for a 24 hour period, how much did your cal drop in ppm per day. Then figure in how many gallons that your holding.

Not the product’s strength that you use, to keep your calcium’s level balanced.

 

[GoVols]

I'm using the Red Sea's Alk and Ca.

Dep-Dog,
Read the backside of one of your color’s bottle.

Dose 1ml (of colors) for every 10mls (that you dose) of Red’s Sea’s Foundation calcium part A - “liquid”

If you read the ingredients of Red Sea‘s part A calcium it has two other trace elements that Red Sea left out of their Color’s program….

 

[DeputyDog95]

Dep-Dog,
Read the backside of one of your color’s bottle.

Dose 1ml (of colors) for every 10mls (that you dose) of Red’s Sea’s Foundation calcium part A - “liquid”

If you read the ingredients of Red Sea‘s part A calcium it has two other trace elements that Red Sea left out of their Color’s program….

Thanks! I haven't even looked at the bottle yet. Just deferred to the instructions on the website. Which are more complicated than they need to be for a dum-dum like myself.

Although that brings up another interesting conundrum... My tank is not consuming Ca for some reason. Which means I'm also not dosing Strontium and Barium as a result. Hmmm... Maybe I just keep dosing Ca anyway and let the whole thing hopefully balance itself out Mg is around 1350 and my nutrients are at appropriate levels for an SPS tank (0.06 and 8). Head scratcher. Don't want to derail this thread though.