Reduce nitrate in saltwater tank

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

Never heard of anyone dosing windex!! I've used janitorial strength ammonia from Ace Hardware (it is definitely surfactant-free) and dosed like you said, to 1-3 ppm, at 4ppm things come to a halt. Keep level above 1ppm. Once you can dose to 1ppm and in 24 hours you have no ammonia, no nitrite, and only nitrate, you're done. Big PWC. Cycled a 225 in 2 weeks.

 

[Harold Green]

Russ I mean no disrespect but this is new to me as I've never dosed a new tank with ammonia and I can see the ease for new aquarists to use that method. Over the last decade or so I've gotten away from using live animals like fish to cycle with and instead cycle with fresh live rock. I realize this is frowned on by those who believe it threatens the tank to add any unsterilized rock to the tank but I like all the beneficial life that comes in on the rock. My last shipment of rock came in with brain corals, ivory corals, tube corals, sponges, clams, urchins, crabs, plants, etc. Adding small amounts of filter feeding foods the tank cycled in a very short period of time allowing me to begin adding corals pretty quickly with little rise in ammonia or nitrates. Kind of a cycle in slow motion and yet a year later the tank is full of corals and a small handful of fish. You just can't rush it which I suppose you can using ammonia to establish a large bio filter quickly.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

If you use live rock (truly live, i.e. not dried out, bleached, sanitized, etc) then this will come with a lot of bacteria (depending on how long it was out of the water) and also a lot of organics that will essentially fuel your cycle, as well as the bacteria which will mute it (again, depending on how "live" the rock is).

That's just the nitrogen cycle though. Your tank still have to mature and that is 6-12 months to stability of things we hobbyists don't really have the capacity to measure.

see #15 here

 

[Harold Green]

Turbo if you still have nitrate you're not done. I generally feel it takes a year for a tank to actually run in to a very stable condition where most animals can survive in it.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

I understand what you mean: in a SW tank there is active denitrification that occurs. This process takes a long time to build up. But as far as the standard bacterial nitrogen cycle goes, which most people consider to be Waste -> Ammonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrate, once the bacteria in the system are able to convert 1ppm of ammonia (dosed from 0ppm) fully to Nitrate in 24 hours, the basic bacterial colony is established.

Denitrification does not commonly occur in FW as it does in SW, or at least, I never remember reading about it happening in FW (I started in FW 30 yrs ago). So for the freshies, it ends there and you're stuck doing water changes.

For the salties, it's different over the long term. But that's why I posted that link to Mything the Reef #15 which pretty much says what you just said.

 

[Russ265]

Never heard of anyone dosing windex!! I've used janitorial strength ammonia from Ace Hardware (it is definitely surfactant-free) and dosed like you said, to 1-3 ppm, at 4ppm things come to a halt. Keep level above 1ppm. Once you can dose to 1ppm and in 24 hours you have no ammonia, no nitrite, and only nitrate, you're done. Big PWC. Cycled a 225 in 2 weeks.

i cycled my 265 gallon tank with dry rock, 1/8th cup windex, and dr tims in 3 weeks. surfectants never made a difference ime. i also didnt retain ammonia levels during the cycle and ended with 8 ppm nitrate.

i have never witnessed a cycle in 2 weeks without LR or bacteria supplements and even then, i would question it's stability.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

Fact: not all surfactants are soaps, but all soaps are surfactants.

Soap surfactants are what causes ammonia to froth up and stay that way. For instance, wal-mart ammonia says it has surfactants but when you shake it up, the bubble pop right away. Local grocery store chain ammonia foams up and stays that way.

Soap surfactant will ruin everything in your tank, including your tank. Which means you need to tear down and bleach, scrub, and powerwash everything. Or just throw all the contents out, clean the tank, and start over.

I would never use Windex for cycling when regular ammonia is available. At best, the blue color is only a dye, which I don't want anywhere near my water. If surfactants didn't make a difference, it was because it wasn't a soap based one. Not all types of Windex and likely not some off brands would be the same.

 

[Russ265]

Fact: not all surfactants are soaps, but all soaps are surfactants.

Soap surfactants are what causes ammonia to froth up and stay that way. For instance, wal-mart ammonia says it has surfactants but when you shake it up, the bubble pop right away. Local grocery store chain ammonia foams up and stays that way.

Soap surfactant will ruin everything in your tank, including your tank. Which means you need to tear down and bleach, scrub, and powerwash everything. Or just throw all the contents out, clean the tank, and start over.

I would never use Windex for cycling when regular ammonia is available. At best, the blue color is only a dye, which I don't want anywhere near my water. If surfactants didn't make a difference, it was because it wasn't a soap based one. Not all types of Windex and likely not some off brands would be the same.

false
i can shake my windex up and it froths like hell. i have a joe's rainbow and a number of other "choice" acros.

i hope you do not give this unnecessary advice to others.

my windex was name brand.

i also cycled my previous 220 with ammonia publix brand in the cleaning isle.

before you give advice, i would suggest you look in to calcium/carbonate reactions with surfactants.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

I'm open to learning things but are you saying that I'm giving bad advice by saying to just simply avoid ammonia with surfactants?

i also cycled my previous 220 with ammonia publix brand in the cleaning isle.

Mine was Hy-vee brand. Not saying that all store brands are anything one way or the other. Just that you can't really go by any brand or store.

PS if you don't mind, give me the cliff notes version. All I got were a bunch of scientific papers (which I don't have time to read atm)

 

[Russ265]

I'm open to learning things but are you saying that I'm giving bad advice by saying to just simply avoid ammonia with surfactants?

no i am not. it is actually good advice.

i am saying your bad advice was breaking down a tank needlessly to fix something mother nature will already solve.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

i am saying your bad advice was breaking down a tank needlessly to fix something mother nature will already solve.

I went rounds on another forum about this a while back and the example was a tank that no matter what the guy tried, it wouldn't cycle at all. He had used ammonia with surfactant and basically everyone told him to throw everything out. I saw no comment about it eventually taking care of itself so I sure would like to know about this, then go post on that thread with an update even though it was years ago.

 

[Russ265]

I went rounds on another forum about this a while back and the example was a tank that no matter what the guy tried, it wouldn't cycle at all. He had used ammonia with surfactant and basically everyone told him to throw everything out. I saw no comment about it eventually taking care of itself so I sure would like to know about this, then go post on that thread with an update even though it was years ago.

most stubborn cycles using this method employed too much ammonia imho.
maybe it is slower going to nonpure route. however i have not had any issues.

stubborn cycling can also be observed using a dead shrimp or damsel too.

there is no "silver bullet". but i assure you, if there is ammonia, bacteria will consume it.

i used the "shake" method for the previous cycling of my 220. i learned afterward about surfactants and how they could stall a cycle. it was already in there, but it still cycled none the less.

with my 265. i just didnt give a crap. lol "in you go". im sure it bubbles too (name brand windex) when you shake it.

you could really spin the argument in your favor just by stating "you are putting household chemicals in your tank! blasphomy!"
but it is what it is

 

[prdubois]

Not sure if this is correct, it is from this page:
http://fragtasticreef.com/Reef-Octo...otein-Skimmer-NWB-150-Octopus-Classic-150.htm
90 Gallon – Heavy Filtration Demand

If it is correct, and you have a sump, then you may be right on the line

 

[Reefing Madness]

If you use live rock (truly live, i.e. not dried out, bleached, sanitized, etc) then this will come with a lot of bacteria (depending on how long it was out of the water) and also a lot of organics that will essentially fuel your cycle, as well as the bacteria which will mute it (again, depending on how "live" the rock is).

That's just the nitrogen cycle though. Your tank still have to mature and that is 6-12 months to stability of things we hobbyists don't really have the capacity to measure.

see #15 here

Its gotta be Fully Cured Live Rock to have a benefit to the tank. If its not Cured, it will have die off and create ammonia in the tank.
If Cured Rock is used, the tank will cycle in a matter of days.

 

[Harold Green]

Reefing I've had just the opposite experience. Cured live rock may be nearly useless in cycling a tank. Often it's held in tanks for months so the initial die off and ammonia have been long consumed and bacteria in the rock may be almost non existent by the time you get the cured rock. I normally buy Florida live rock. It's collected and air freighted overnite. Most of the time crabs and other animals survive the short period of time the rock spent in shipping and the rock generally has plenty of bacteria to start the cycle in the tank. Even the encrusting sponges have survived and I usually have a very quick nitrogen cycle determined by whatever ammonia source I end up using to verify the completion of the cycle.

 

[beaslbob]

IMHO the best was of controlling nitrates is live algae whether an ats, a refugium with macros, or corraline on rocks.

Algae not only lowers nitrates but also prefers to consume ammonia the bacteria miss, phosphates, carbon dioxide, and even heavy ions like copper. And returns oxygen and fish food as well. by harvesting it exports those nasty heavy ions as well as the fish wastes.

I recommend people start a tank with a refugium with macro algaes. During the cycle process the algae will help keep ammonia spike down and with enough there will be small short ammonia spikes if any at all.

And it does not take a refugium 1/2 the size of you display.

my .02

 

[Purpule Tang]

IMHO the best was of controlling nitrates is live algae whether an ats, a refugium with macros, or corraline on rocks.

Algae not only lowers nitrates but also prefers to consume ammonia the bacteria miss, phosphates, carbon dioxide, and even heavy ions like copper. And returns oxygen and fish food as well. by harvesting it exports those nasty heavy ions as well as the fish wastes.

I recommend people start a tank with a refugium with macro algaes. During the cycle process the algae will help keep ammonia spike down and with enough there will be small short ammonia spikes if any at all.

And it does not take a refugium 1/2 the size of you display.

my .02

Mr.beaslbob so your telling that do not need refugium with 1/2 of size tank?right?
For example for my tank 120*50*60cm,how much size refugium need?
Can I use from bio pellet and refugium in same time?
Thanks

 

[beaslbob]

Mr.beaslbob so your telling that do not need refugium with 1/2 of size tank?right?

That is correct. A lot depends on how much algae in in the display. Plus you can even use an in tank refugium as well. But 20-30% should be more then enough. with 0% (zero) possible with various displays.

For example for my tank 120*50*60cm,how much size refugium need?
Can I use from bio pellet and refugium in same time?
Thanks

Yes you can use refugiums with bio pellets and most other things. IMHO bio pellets will take away nutrients from the macro algae. So to me it is better to simply not use bio pellets and let the macros thrive.

But then I think that of most things like skimmer, dsbs, and the like.

my .02

 

[EzraZamir]

FWIW, I tried the method I posted earlier and it worked. Nitrates are now close to zero and were pushing 20 ppm.

 

[mrjohnreed]

New to the forum but not to the hobby. I currently have a 36 gallon tank that is now 3 months old. The only inhabitants in the tank are 2 turbo snails. I currently have 28 lbs of live rock and 20 lbs of live sand in the tank. I have a HOB filter which is only running ChemiPure and Purigen in the filter. I have been through the cycle and the tank is crystal clear. All my levels look good except that I am unable to get my nitrates down past 40. They did however spike up to well over 80 ppm. I have already conducted 2 40% water changes and am now down to 40ppm on the nitrate. Is there anything else that I may not be doing or forgetting, there is no sump or protein skimmer running. I had a 30 long about 6 years ago and ran it with just a HOB filter and never had a nitrate problem. I have tested the water I used to change the water and it is at 0ppm in nitrates. Thanks to everyone for their help.