Reducing NH4

[oscar14]

Hi there, I’ve been trying to find information on how to reduce NH4 in my tank. I am currently 1 1/2 into my cycle and everything is running smooth. It’s a 10g Nuvo under a an AI prime. I am monitoring with the Seneye Reef monitor. My NH4 is reading around 20 and I do not know how much is safe. Ammonia is about 0. Now would Purigen also remove NH4?

 

[abw75]

I think you should not add anything. This is part of tank cycle and will drop in time. Read more about nitrogen cycle

 

[MattW33]

NH4 is in equilibrium with NH3, so as your NH3 drops, so will your NH4. As the previous poster mentioned, it's all part of your cycle. Also, bear in mind that the units of NH4 are ppb, so the ratio of NH3 to NH4 is about 1:2, which is about what you'd expect.

 

[brandon429]

Looking sharp, the nh3 is the critical part and that shows thousandths / low


surely nh3 was above .001 at least a few times? If it’s never moved then something is wrong with the unit or the slide prep. Nh3 should have some dynamic action it’s never just stuck at any level unless you haven’t dosed ammonium chloride recently, and there’s no bioload in the tank. All bottle bac strains are ready before day 21 I bet this tank is cycled, nh3 is the one we watch
Nitrite won’t factor nor nitrate, though I bet there are some nitrates which is confirming along with that nh3

if there isn’t bottle bac used, you are still ok per any cycling chart-nh3 is under control and past day ten which is when a cycling chart shows typical ammonia control and those are written for non bottle bac use, submersion time only.
post a tank pic

 

[brandon429]

*very important question as we use seneye posts to track cycle outcomes and compare them to other ammonia test kits: did nh3 at any time hit and hold at .25 ppm nh3 in this cycle, even on the first few days? How long did nh3 stay in the hundredths level before hitting .001?

 

[MabuyaQ]

NH4 is in equilibrium with NH3, so as your NH3 drops, so will your NH4. As the previous poster mentioned, it's all part of your cycle. Also, bear in mind that the units of NH4 are ppb, so the ratio of NH3 to NH4 is about 1:2, which is about what you'd expect.

This isn't true the equilibrium between NH3 and NH4 is pH dependent (and temperature but I am assuming this isn't fluctuating enough to be of concern) which means that at NSW pH around 17% of total ammonia is NH3. Also the conversion factor between ppm and ppb is a factor 1000. So 0.001 ppm is 1 ppb, so this ratio is not 1:2 but 1:22. The question here is what happens during the day when pH rises because this measurement was at a relatively low pH of 7.9 so I suspect taken before or at the start of your photoperiod. Ammonia readings should be taken when pH is at its highest.

 

[MattW33]

This isn't true the equilibrium between NH3 and NH4 is pH dependent (and temperature but I am assuming this isn't fluctuating enough to be of concern) which means that at NSW pH around 17% of total ammonia is NH3. Also the conversion factor between ppm and ppb is a factor 1000. So 0.001 ppm is 1 ppb, so this ratio is not 1:2 but 1:22. The question here is what happens during the day when pH rises because this measurement was at a relatively low pH of 7.9 so I suspect taken before or at the start of your photoperiod. Ammonia readings should be taken when pH is at its highest.

I think this discussion is going a bit further than necessary to answer the op's question. However, I'm not sure which part of my post you consider to be untrue, I intended to simplify things to get across the main points that the level of NH4 is both expected and not an isuue that needs fixing. I don't know what the accuracy and precision of a Seneye is at these levels, but I assume 0.001 ppm is the detection limit for NH3, so quoting the extra accuracy on the ratio to NH4 is irrelevant (especially as if the pH is truly 7.9, then NH3 should be much lower for that level of NH4) .
You make a good point about taking NH3 measurements when the pH is highest, but it's possible that op's system doesn't get much higher.

 

[brandon429]

@oscar14 We do not hardly ever get to see seneye cycling logs. Ever. We get to see mature tanks on seneye


what your logs show depending on how you cycled is some of the newest information the hobby has about cycling, how it works, and especially in what time frame so post up those early nh3 details for the first few days after ammonia dosing to start the cycle and I’ll link your thread here to about two hundred pages worth of different cycling threads where we speculate / predict what seneye will say since we don’t get to actually see it in this stage


in case you were wondering why I’m hung up on the early cycling details it’s because current cycling rules have been shown to be wrong by the very few seneye we have seen. All the claims we have been taught by authors and sages about how cycling works, if it can be stalled, wrong. A new dawn is coming due to digital nh3 testers

in five years the price of these meters will go down and new competition will be here, all digital no more color test tube guessing...we want to collect the earliest data possible using seneye and within five years the hobby will be cycling much different than we do now. Faster. Better, exactly like dialup web vs fiber web.

The number one new rule we see kicking out the old rule is that no cycle stalls, nh3 is taken care of *fast* by the bottle bac we add, and .25 nh3 or any reading in the tenths never occurs for days on end (red sea and api disagree, old rules) so let’s see if thats true, again, here.

Even hundredths ppm nh3 (what Red Sea reads after TAN conversion chart) doesn’t happen like we’ve been told. It does not take twenty days to control nh3, it’s fast as soon as we start, because bottle bac works that well. Reefs get into thousandths ppm nh3 control quickly after starting the cycle, this is the new rule we are testing out. Thousands of fish-in cycles already indicate this as an unmeasured clue as well.

 

[oscar14]

Looking sharp, the nh3 is the critical part and that shows thousandths / low


surely nh3 was above .001 at least a few times? If it’s never moved then something is wrong with the unit or the slide prep. Nh3 should have some dynamic action it’s never just stuck at any level unless you haven’t dosed ammonium chloride recently, and there’s no bioload in the tank. All bottle bac strains are ready before day 21 I bet this tank is cycled, nh3 is the one we watch
Nitrite won’t factor nor nitrate, though I bet there are some nitrates which is confirming along with that nh3

if there isn’t bottle bac used, you are still ok per any cycling chart-nh3 is under control and past day ten which is when a cycling chart shows typical ammonia control and those are written for non bottle bac use, submersion time only.
post a tank pic

I added the Seneye probably 20 days after the cycle had started, but I did test with API and it was over .25 I had started the cycle with Dr. Tims One and Only nitrifying bacteria and added a clownfish. Now I did added more bacteria than needed but I can’t overdose right?

 

[oscar14]

*very important question as we use seneye posts to track cycle outcomes and compare them to other ammonia test kits: did nh3 at any time hit and hold at .25 ppm nh3 in this cycle, even on the first few days? How long did nh3 stay in the hundredths level before hitting .001?

I added the Seneye probably 20 days after the cycle had started, but I did test with API and it was over .25 I had started the cycle with Dr. Tims One and Only nitrifying bacteria and added a clownfish. Now I did added more bacteria than needed but I can’t overdose right?

 

[oscar14]

Now is there any chemical filtration that removes NH4?

 

[brandon429]

You don’t need to do anything, post a tank picture it will show the fish swimming normally meaning cycle done. Above when I mentioned we only look at nh3 that’s literal, take no action here your nh3 is in control.


In updated cycle science that predicts when a cycle will complete vs waiting arbitrarily (MACNA conventions with 500 reefs all start on the same date, no cycle lags or misses) they only factor nh3. Not a single other cycle param matters, so we wouldn’t take any action for nh4. Simply reef day to day, feed, change water, export waste etc.

 

[brandon429]

Your seneye never read higher than it does now correct (for nh3)

it would help if you’d take another api ammonia reading and post the vial color, I bet it’s light green still. If hard yellow I’m impressed.

if it’s light green doesn’t matter we’d still take no action but normal daily reefing. We want to link perfect seneye readings above to a tank picture with happy fish to an api reading for a big picture on cycling.

 

[oscar14]

You don’t need to do anything, post a tank picture it will show the fish swimming normally meaning cycle done. Above when I mentioned we only look at nh3 that’s literal, take no action here your nh3 is in control.

Thanks Brandon and everybody who responded. I will follow your advice, I’ll just give it more time. I also added a Seneye reef since small water volume is more susceptible to swings. Another reason is that it had the perk of also being a par reader. I am planning to to keep a black widow TBA and since I went bare bottom I also plan to have an encrusting Montipora

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi there, I’ve been trying to find information on how to reduce NH4 in my tank. I am currently 1 1/2 into my cycle and everything is running smooth. It’s a 10g Nuvo under a an AI prime. I am monitoring with the Seneye Reef monitor. My NH4 is reading around 20 and I do not know how much is safe. Ammonia is about 0. Now would Purigen also remove NH4?

Those ammonia values are quite low and no concern (and also may not be accurate).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Now is there any chemical filtration that removes NH4?

There is zero reason to want to, as I noted in the other thread, and yours is now quite low.

22 ppb? That is only 0.02 ppm. Low.

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


Ammonia Concentration Guidelines

Because ammonia's toxic effects appear at levels significantly below those that are acutely lethal (0.09 to 3.35 ppm NH3-N or 1.3 to 50 ppm total NH4-N at pH 8.2), and because some organisms in a reef aquarium may be more sensitive than the few organisms that have been carefully studied, it is prudent to err on the side of caution when deciding what concentrations of ammonia to allow in a reef aquarium or related system.

My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes.6 Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment, preferably involving removal of all delicate (ammonia sensitive) organisms from the water containing the ammonia. Some of the possible actions to take are detailed in the following sections listed below.

 

[oscar14]

There is zero reason to want to, as I noted in the other thread, and yours is now quite low.

22 ppb? That is only 0.02 ppm. Low.

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


Ammonia Concentration Guidelines

Because ammonia's toxic effects appear at levels significantly below those that are acutely lethal (0.09 to 3.35 ppm NH3-N or 1.3 to 50 ppm total NH4-N at pH 8.2), and because some organisms in a reef aquarium may be more sensitive than the few organisms that have been carefully studied, it is prudent to err on the side of caution when deciding what concentrations of ammonia to allow in a reef aquarium or related system.

My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes.6 Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment, preferably involving removal of all delicate (ammonia sensitive) organisms from the water containing the ammonia. Some of the possible actions to take are detailed in the following sections listed below.

Sorry I’m kind of a noobie, but as far as having .25ppm of TAN is kinda of confusing to me. Would there be any need of doing something if there is more NH4 levels and low NH3 levels as seen in my case?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sorry I’m kind of a noobie, but as far as having .25ppm of TAN is kinda of confusing to me. Would there be any need of doing something if there is more NH4 levels and low NH3 levels as seen in my case?

I cannot understand what you mean. Your total ammonia From the Seneye is ten times lower than 0.25 ppm. Where did that come from?

only pay attention to total ammonia In a reef tank.

 

[MattW33]

Sorry I’m kind of a noobie, but as far as having .25ppm of TAN is kinda of confusing to me. Would there be any need of doing something if there is more NH4 levels and low NH3 levels as seen in my case?

Please forgive me if I've misunderstood, but I think it's the units that are confusing you.
Randy is saying that if your summed levels of NH3 and NH4 exceed 0.25 ppm, then action is needed.
In your tank at the moment, you have 0.001 ppm of NH3 and 0.02203 ppm on NH4 (because the Seneye reads NH4 in ppb which are 1000 times smaller units than ppm) , so your total ammonia is 0.02303 ppm, 10x lower than the 0.25 thresholdd for corrective action.
These levels are also very close/at the direction limit of the Seneye so in reality your values may be lower.