Redundancy Heater Programming

[homer1475]

Exactly what I do for all my sensors and switches. Virtual outlets so I know exactly what and why an alarm is going off.

I had figured it would add the switches, but not having the module or new apex, I was not sure.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Jason Roth]

Right, you have to create the proper virtual output first, where you gather together all the leak detector switch inputs. In my case, it's:

If LeakCF CLOSED Then ON
If LeakLB CLOSED Then ON
If LeakRB CLOSED Then ON
If LeakS1 CLOSED Then ON
If LeakS2 CLOSED Then ON
If LeakS3 CLOSED Then ON
Defer 000:05 Then ON

Turn the Inkbird output to ON for a few seconds, then back to AUTO. Make sure the change 'takes'.

Turn the backup heater output to OFF for a few seconds, and then back to AUTO.

Also homer1475 makes a good point - all new programming should always be tested as much as possible before being let loose on its own. Unfortunately the Apex doesn't have a 'safe test mode' so what this means in practice is just watching the code and its effects including manually testing outputs closely for however long until you're really satisfied that it's working completely as intended.

Yeah I figured. I will have to do it this weekend when I have a little extra time to install and turn on, then try coding. On the inkbird, that worked, but ended up turning back off I assume because of the temp changes again but lower. I had to add the Set On statement for the inkbird and then it worked and has been since. And for testing I was even considering taking a blow drier to the temp probe to raise temp to see it switch from inkbird to apex and then let it cool and see if it switches back again. and then yeah, testing low setting like you said, just change the temp in the inkbird which I can do for the high temp as well.

If you want, you can have your heaters turn off when the return pump is off. Just add the appropriate lines to your heater code:

If Output ReturnPump = OFF Then OFF

Also, the Apex doesn't have any self contained alarms, visual or audio. Neither the 2016 nor the EL. There is a programmable audible alarm that comes with the optional Apex Display unit. There are many reasons to have the display and I use them, but the alarm is pretty quiet and won't wake someone sleeping in the next room. However, the EB832 has 2 programmable 24VDC power ports, and it's easy enough to connect one of these to a very loud piezo buzzer which definitely will get your attention.

I honestly didn't even think about the heaters when I did the water change. It wasn't till I finally found the spike in the graph and checked the time and day that I realized why and it totally made sense which is great because I was ticked I had something fail that was brand new and couldn't get the inkbird to stay on again. But luckily the redundancy with the backup worked well and kept temp stable. So I will add this statement in for future water changes.

Where can I see the logs of everything? The temp and ph is easy since they are on the dashboard. But I have all the heaters, the return pump setup to log, but haven't found them yet to see the graphs.

 

[Jason Roth]

I really owe you both. The info has greatly helped understand things and get me started on this. There is always a lot to learn and I need to start setting time aside to research more and learn. working a regular job and having a side business along with family my time is limited, but I need to put this higher on the priority list at least for now until things are going and stable. I can't thank you enough.

 

[rkpetersen]

Y
Where can I see the logs of everything? The temp and ph is easy since they are on the dashboard. But I have all the heaters, the return pump setup to log, but haven't found them yet to see the graphs.

Click on the grey Output Logs button at the upper left of the dash. Outputs that have logging enabled will have their various state changes listed there. Inputs are graphed, but outputs are listed.

 

[Jason Roth]

Plugged in the leak detector and do you can see @homer1475 here are the inputs that popped up for the 4 sensors. Should just be the SWx_. I dont recall if the SW ones were there or not. There are 6 so not sure right now. I gotta read. @rkpetersen

 

[homer1475]

By default the Apex has those top switches. Mine became active when I plugged in the BOB. The Swx switches are from the leak detectors. Those are the ones you have to reference in your programming.

Lets say that your Swx3_4 is a leak detector around your return, and you want the return to shutoff if that sensor is tripped. Your programming would look something like this:

If Swx3_4 open then off

Assuming the switch is normally closed. If it's normally open, you just change the "open" to "closed".

 

[Jason Roth]

By default the Apex has those top switches. Mine became active when I plugged in the BOB. The Swx switches are from the leak detectors. Those are the ones you have to reference in your programming.

Lets say that your Swx3_4 is a leak detector around your return, and you want the return to shutoff if that sensor is tripped. Your programming would look something like this:

If Swx3_4 open then off

Assuming the switch is normally closed. If it's normally open, you just change the "open" to "closed".

They are normally open. I took water on my finger and put it on the bottom of the sensor and watched it switch to closed.

So does this coding go into the devices I want to shut off? So would I add it to the return pump coding? I created the VO LeakDetector and the code was SET OFF. I erased that and entered the following based on the sensor names I gave them and the defer from what rkpetersen recommended.

If LDrain CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP1 CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP2 CLOSED Then ON
If LD_RTN CLOSED Then ON
Defer 000:05 Then ON

So that is under the actual VO for the leak detector. But I would think for any equipment I would want it to be OFF, not ON if it is closed. I assume this code is just telling the virtual outlet that you want it on if a leak is detected. But nothing is telling my return pump, skimmer, etc to turn off if the sensors are closed. So then I am thinking I need to go into the other equipment and add a line

If Output LeakDetector = On Then Off

If correct, does it matter where that line goes in the existing coding I have?

Being I only have one return pump, skimmer and some powerheads I would assume just shut down the skimmer and return pump. Although I have a gfo/carbon reactor from BRS so I could shut that down as well if I hook that to the apex. Powerheads I should be able to leave running. I will only have the icecap hooked to the apex for now anyway.

 

[Jason Roth]

So now trying to figure out my alarms. Reading back on @rkpetersen post, I added these to the base_email, alarm on the apex base unit. Which I assume is the email alert?

The LDrain and LSUMP1 were already there for some reason. Do they auto add? I don't think I added them. I then added the last 2 lines.

Set OFF
If Temp > 81.9 Then ON
If Temp < 75.9 Then ON
If LDrain CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP1 CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP2 CLOSED Then ON
If LD_RTN CLOSED Then ON

 

[homer1475]

Base Alarm is the audible sound that emanates from the display unit. I have renamed my alarm outlets, so I'm not sure what they were originally called.

The VO is where you would put each(or all) of the leak detector switches, then instead if that huge line of code, you just reference the VO in your pump outlet. So for instance, taking your code you posted above, lets make a VO and call it Leak_Det.

So in that VO we will put:
If LDrain CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP1 CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP2 CLOSED Then ON
If LD_RTN CLOSED Then ON
Defer 000:05 Then ON

Then in your return pump outlet code you simple put:
If Outlet Leak_Det = on then off

Simple as that.

 

[Jason Roth]

Base Alarm is the audible sound that emanates from the display unit. I have renamed my alarm outlets, so I'm not sure what they were originally called.

The VO is where you would put each(or all) of the leak detector switches, then instead if that huge line of code, you just reference the VO in your pump outlet. So for instance, taking your code you posted above, lets make a VO and call it Leak_Det.

So in that VO we will put:
If LDrain CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP1 CLOSED Then ON
If LSUMP2 CLOSED Then ON
If LD_RTN CLOSED Then ON
Defer 000:05 Then ON

Then in your return pump outlet code you simple put:
If Outlet Leak_Det = on then off

Simple as that.

Yup. Exactly what I figured after talking it through and thinking about it for a few. Thank you

 

[rkpetersen]

So now trying to figure out my alarms. Reading back on @rkpetersen post, I added these to the base_email, alarm on the apex base unit. Which I assume is the email alert?

It can be email, or text message, or notification from the Apex Fusion app. Of those, notification by the app is always the fastest to reach me.

Also, if you plug in a Display, you get two new audible alarm outlets to program. If you don't have a Display connected, those outlets aren't present at all, just the email/text/notification one.

 

[rkpetersen]

If correct, does it matter where that line goes in the existing coding I have?

It may matter, it depends on what other code you have. In general, you want the more 'important' or 'priority' code lines toward the bottom (although there are exceptions.)
More important items toward the bottom also applies to programming your email alarm outlet. This is because the Apex only reports the last alert statement that it finds to be ON. So if a couple of things go wrong at once, or if something goes wrong and then something else goes wrong before the first is fixed, the Apex will only tell you about the last one it sees in the list. So code for a system power failure, or a leak, or a return pump failure, for example, should be at the bottom of your alarms list.

Being I only have one return pump, skimmer and some powerheads I would assume just shut down the skimmer and return pump. Although I have a gfo/carbon reactor from BRS so I could shut that down as well if I hook that to the apex. Powerheads I should be able to leave running. I will only have the icecap hooked to the apex for now anyway.

I pretty much shut down everything except powerheads if I get a leak detected. It's the ultimate emergency and I need to find out what's going on and immediately correct it if possible. Everything else is a distraction. Other pumps etc can be started back up quickly if the problem turns out to be minor (or a false alarm, which some people get, especially when placing the leak detectors on bare concrete floors.)

 

[Jason Roth]

It can be email, or text message, or notification from the Apex Fusion app. Of those, notification by the app is always the fastest to reach me.

Also, if you plug in a Display, you get two new audible alarm outlets to program. If you don't have a Display connected, those outlets aren't present at all, just the email/text/notification one.

No display yet. Eventually I will get one. I might need to trip some of these items to set off the alarm to make sure it is working correctly.

This is my return pump code

Fallback ON
Set ON
If Output LeakDetector = ON Then OFF

Here is the Inkbird code as example which I did the same adding the leakdetector line for the backup heater, skimmer, reactor. I put the line at the end of all but before defer on the items I have a defer statement. Which thinking about it maybe it should be after defer since it’s more important.

Fallback ON
Set ON
If Temp > 80.9 Then OFF
If Output ReturnPump = OFF Then OFF
If Output LeakDetector = ON Then OFF

Here is the alarm output code. I assume this is what will text and email me. I need to go back and read to refresh my memory. And need to trip one of these to see what happens. Then I want to figure out using the VO like mentioned for my alarms for the switches and sensors. I have my tunze ato to setup and using the Neptune optical eye for low level in reservoir. And looking at the alarms, the last one for apex power I should have then ON, not OFF I’d think.

 

[rkpetersen]

Here is the Inkbird code as example which I did the same adding the leakdetector line for the backup heater, skimmer, reactor. I put the line at the end of all but before defer on the items I have a defer statement. Which thinking about it maybe it should be after defer since it’s more important.

That code is fine. Remember, statements like Defer and When On apply to the whole stack and can be placed anywhere. So where they are in relation to other lines of code doesn't matter.

And looking at the alarms, the last one for apex power I should have then ON, not OFF I’d think.

Yup, that's correct. You want it to turn the alarm outlet ON.

Definitely test and make sure your notification system is working, after setting it up in Fusion. When an alert triggers, the text or email will show you which line did so, like this:

Date: 2019-03-24 07:15:06 -0700
Status: ON
Statement: If LDrain CLOSED Then ON

Then, when the problem is solved and the alert clears, you will get another text or email telling you that the Set OFF line is now in effect (i.e. the conditions after it are no longer true.)

 

[Jason Roth]

Know what’s funny, I was just going to post this image because I figure from what homer1475 said about using the VO as alerts for each switch and sensors would fix my problem. This isn’t telling me what went off. However I think it’s from my skimmer. I just turned that outlet on and it has the defer statement. And I got tired of waiting so I msnuslly turned it on and then off and thought I should wait the two minutes to see if it works. So I’m assuming the alerts were the skimmer and me manuslly doing stuff

Fallback ON
Set ON
Defer 002:00 Then ON
If Output LeakDetector = ON Then OFF

Also having heck of a time trying to save a configuration file so I don’t lose all this. Keeps giving me a 401 error. I’m logging into the local IP and going to the correct place to load/save but keep getting the error. I’m not supposed to crest a file first am I? I’ve looked on the Neptune forums and google but I just keep finding where to go to save or load. My log in credentials for local I changed from admin to be the same as fusion.

 

[rkpetersen]

Also having heck of a time trying to save a configuration file so I don’t lose all this. Keeps giving me a 401 error. I’m logging into the local IP and going to the correct place to load/save but keep getting the error. I’m not supposed to crest a file first am I? I’ve looked on the Neptune forums and google but I just keep finding where to go to save or load. My log in credentials for local I changed from admin to be the same as fusion.

Saving your programming is possible, but restoring can be very tricky and doesn't always work. Pray that you never need to try it.

This may be what you're already doing, but you go to Apex Local (with the local IP address), then to the Misc page, then the grey box at the upper left that has a hard drive icon and labelled Load/Save. They select save and click save, it should bring up a save file dialog. No need to create a file first. If you're getting a 401 error that usually means you have to sign back into local.

The other thing I recommend strongly is saving your entire configuration as a self-contained web page. That way, even if you have to do a manual restore of the entire system, it's still doable using cut and paste. To do this, go to the very top left of the dashboard, and pull down the menu at the name of your system. Pull down to Configuration -> Summary. It will load the summary page. Now right click anywhere on the page and select Save Page As... A dialog will open to let you save the web page with all elements.

 

[homer1475]

The other thing I recommend strongly is saving your entire configuration as a self-contained web page. That way, even if you have to do a manual restore of the entire system, it's still doable using cut and paste. To do this, go to the very top left of the dashboard, and pull down the menu at the name of your system. Pull down to Configuration -> Summary. It will load the summary page. Now right click anywhere on the page and select Save Page As... A dialog will open to let you save the web page with all elements.

I never knew this. Great Idea and something I'm going go do right now.

 

[Jason Roth]

Thank you @rkpetersen

The issue ended up being I changed the name from apex to moneypit. So I could never sign into local. Once I when to the correct host name it worked. So I have the file. I thought it saved to the cloud but it’s just on my desktop as a .bin file.

Someone mentioned saving a pdf file showing feed programs, module addresses, seasons, virtual outlets. Is that all saved in this summary you mentioned?

Are the module addresses assigned based on the usb they are plugged into? I have wire management to do so the usb location might change. I planned on saving the config and this summary after every change/addition to the system.

 

[rkpetersen]

The issue ended up being I changed the name from apex to moneypit. So I could never sign into local. Once I when to the correct host name it worked. So I have the file. I thought it saved to the cloud but it’s just on my desktop as a .bin file.

Yup, got to access local via the new system name (or its IP address on your local network). (good tank name, btw, very accurate!)
And yes, the backup file is saved to your desktop. A cloud save system with automatic restore of everything in case of emergency would be nice, but doesn't exist.

Someone mentioned saving a pdf file showing feed programs, module addresses, seasons, virtual outlets. Is that all saved in this summary you mentioned?

It includes all module details, output/outlet coding including VOs, and profiles. It does not include the season table, but this is a fairly minor issue. I do keep a screenshot of my season temperature table though.
You could do it as a pdf, definitely, but saving as a webpage is quicker and doesn't require any additional software.

Are the module addresses assigned based on the usb they are plugged into? I have wire management to do so the usb location might change. I planned on saving the config and this summary after every change/addition to the system.

Module addresses are assigned as the next available numerical position, when they're plugged in. Which physical Aquabus port they're plugged into means nothing, this is entirely interchangeable, it is the order that the devices are connected to the system that determines addresses. So you can unplug a working device and plug it in to different Aquabus port, and the system will still recognize it and work correctly.

There is also no way to manually assign addresses. If you have a disaster and have to reconfigure from scratch, all the modules have to be reconnected first, in the exact same order, before doing a restore. You also need to set up all the VO slots before doing a restore.

 

[Jason Roth]

Exactly what I do for all my sensors and switches. Virtual outlets so I know exactly what and why an alarm is going off.

I had figured it would add the switches, but not having the module or new apex, I was not sure.

Thanks for the clarification.

Would you mind posting an example of one of your sensor or switch VO codes? I am getting ready to setup my tunze ATO and using the Neptune optical sensor in the reservoir to sense when water is low and want it to send me an alarm letting me know. Also would like to be able to turn the alarm off if possible.