reef-pi :: An opensource reef tank controller based on Raspberry Pi.

[Ryan115]

So, here it means clicking on "Off" will turn Channel_1 off, or in other words it is currently "on"

If this stays like this, then would it be possible to have a separate display next to each button for each one showing current state then the button just switches state and is unlabeled, or as someone else mentioned, changing it from a button to a slider?

 

[Ryan115]

As a non-biased test, I just had my wife look at the equipments tab.
She is interpreting it the way that Ranjib has set up, if it is shows red and off and you click on it, that will turn it off.

So basically click to perform the task the button say, just like the delete or update buttons.
I guess I am just backwards

 

[Ranjib]

As a non-biased test, I just had my wife look at the equipments tab.
She is interpreting it the way that Ranjib has set up, if it is shows red and off and you click on it, that will turn it off.

So basically click to perform the task the button say, just like the delete or update buttons.
I guess I am just backwards

I trust your wife's input . And you know why? We know how this works internally , so we are biased. Instead we should always test with someone who is not aware, to check if things are intuitive.

 

[Somnifac]

Ranjib just added the configuration for that in the new release.

Right, but that doesn't change the default state of the relay when it is unpowered. Say there's a power blink that causes your pi to not reboot properly (or one of any number of reasons). This will mean that any relay that is by default and design NC will have a live outlet. If you have your ATO pump plugged into that outlet, it will pump water into your tank until there is no water left in the reservoir, because the NC relays will pass power to the outlet.

The inverse is true for some equipment on NO relays. If you have your pumps on a NO relay and the pi fails, you lose circulation.

So, some equipment has a more desirable "fail state." Since Ranjit had given us the option to define a relay's default state, why tie any particular outlet to one default state?

This way, if you redo you tank, you plug your equipment into any outlet, toggle a switch to determine the preferred fail state of the relay running that outlet, and define it (with the default relay state) in the software.

Sure, it's not useful to everyone, but it make configurability and re-use a little better.

 

[Ranjib]

Right, but that doesn't change the default state of the relay when it is unpowered. Say there's a power blink that causes your pi to not reboot properly (or one of any number of reasons). This will mean that any relay that is by default and design NC will have a live outlet. If you have your ATO pump plugged into that outlet, it will pump water into your tank until there is no water left in the reservoir, because the NC relays will pass power to the outlet.

The inverse is true for some equipment on NO relays. If you have your pumps on a NO relay and the pi fails, you lose circulation.

So, some equipment has a more desirable "fail state." Since Ranjit had given us the option to define a relay's default state, why tie any particular outlet to one default state?

This way, if you redo you tank, you plug your equipment into any outlet, toggle a switch to determine the preferred fail state of the relay running that outlet, and define it (with the default relay state) in the software.

Sure, it's not useful to everyone, but it make configurability and re-use a little better.

When reef-pi starts, it will sync all the outlets to their appropirate state. If thats not the case, its a bug, and should be fixed.
If you wire the relay to use NC way, then yeah, you have the risk of running an equipment arbitrarily if reef-pi is down.
On the otherside, if the relay is configured is NO, and reef-pi is fails it might be on or off depending upon how reef-pi crashed, but if the system boots and reef-pi does not come up then the equipment will be off. To me this is safer. Note, we introduced heartbeat (cpu and memory) messages in reef-pi latest release. You can setup trigger based on that. My idea was that worst case if reef-pi is down, I'll get alerted and may be my equipment will not run for some time till I intervene.
It is certainly possible to have the exact opposite case, and thats why the configurable reverse option per outlet exist..

does that make sense?

 

[Ranjib]

This is a very good discussion by the way , please keep the ideas coming.

 

[Ryan115]

Right, but that doesn't change the default state of the relay when it is unpowered. Say there's a power blink that causes your pi to not reboot properly (or one of any number of reasons). This will mean that any relay that is by default and design NC will have a live outlet. If you have your ATO pump plugged into that outlet, it will pump water into your tank until there is no water left in the reservoir, because the NC relays will pass power to the outlet.

The inverse is true for some equipment on NO relays. If you have your pumps on a NO relay and the pi fails, you lose circulation.

So, some equipment has a more desirable "fail state." Since Ranjit had given us the option to define a relay's default state, why tie any particular outlet to one default state?

This way, if you redo you tank, you plug your equipment into any outlet, toggle a switch to determine the preferred fail state of the relay running that outlet, and define it (with the default relay state) in the software.

Sure, it's not useful to everyone, but it make configurability and re-use a little better.

I think I am a little confused about what you are asking.
As a user I wire my outlets NO/NC as I see fit. Now I can tell reef-pi which way those are wired.
If power goes off and pi does not reboot properly all outlets go to their "normal" state, the same as they would if the pi wasn't even connected.
For my equipment I would probably go with
NC - return pump, skimmer, powerheads, heater (rely on internal thermostat if pi fails)
NO - lights, ATO

This is all do-able right now in reef-pi. Did I miss read what you are wanting to configure?
Also I guess this is a good reason to go with mechanical relays over SSR, or a mix there-of

 

[Somnifac]

When reef-pi starts, it will sync all the outlets to their appropirate state. If thats not the case, its a bug, and should be fixed.

It's not a proper shutdown and restart that worries me. It is that power blink that knocks it offline until manual intervention can happen. I've had that happen on other Pi's I have running in my house (I have a DIY Ambilight setup on my TV with a RPi being the brains, for example).

Given that I've not yet used these controllable relays yet, I am operating on an assumption. That assumption is this: Once power is removed from the relay (i.e. the power outage/blink) it reverts back to its default state. Is this assumption correct?

If it is, then having a means of controlling the default state of the relay (and thus the outlet) without having to open the box up and rewire it can have its advantages. This certainly doesn't require any additional development on your part. As long as we have the ability to define NO or NC in setup, we're good. It would just be a little extra wiring, putting in a toggle switch between the outlet and the outputs of the relay.

 

[Somnifac]

This is all do-able right now in reef-pi. Did I miss read what you are wanting to configure?
Also I guess this is a good reason to go with mechanical relays over SSR, or a mix there-of

Yes, what this would give you is not being hardwired in a particular setup. Sure, the first time you set it up you wire it how you need it right then. Imagine you have 8 channels and you need 6 NO and 2 NC relays. Now, fast forward 14 months and you want to change some things. Now your needs are 5 NO and 3 NC relays. You *could* open the box up and rewire things, or if you anticipated that some change could occur and wired in toggle switches, you throw 1 switch on the desired relay and its default (unenergized) behavior has now been reversed.

 

[Ryan115]

It's not a proper shutdown and restart that worries me. It is that power blink that knocks it offline until manual intervention can happen. I've had that happen on other Pi's I have running in my house (I have a DIY Ambilight setup on my TV with a RPi being the brains).

Given that I've not yet used these controllable relays yet, I am operating on an assumption. That assumption is this: Once power is removed from the relay (i.e. the power outage/blink) it reverts back to its default state. Is this assumption correct?

If it is, then having a means of controlling the default state of the relay (and thus the outlet) can have its advantages. This certainly doesn't require any additional development on your part. As long as we have the ability to define NO or NC in setup, we're good. It would just be a little extra wiring, putting in a toggle switch between the outlet and the outputs of the relay.

Yes, as soon as the control signal is removed, the coil de-energizes and the relay reverts back to Normal state.
I am a little confused on why you would want a toggle to switch between NO and NC. With these relays it is a matter of changing 1 wire position on the header. I cant think of a situation where I need to change an outlet to NO/NC on the fly.

 

[Ryan115]

Yes, what this would give you is not being hardwired in a particular setup. Sure, the first time you set it up you wire it how you need it right then. Imagine you have 8 channels and you need 6 NO and 2 NC relays. Now, fast forward 14 months and you want to change some things. Now your needs are 5 NO and 3 NC relays. You *could* open the box up and rewire things, or if you anticipated that some change could occur and wired in toggle switches, you throw 1 switch on the desired relay and its default (unenergized) behavior has now been reversed.

I suppose you could, but I usually like to K.I.S.S.
That is the benefit of all of this, it is open to change to whatever you need!
If I am changing my configuration, I am going to need to spend the time to re-configure some of the controls for it in the software anyway. So I could spend the time to change a few wires. Otherwise, I plan to leave any equipment that doesnt NEED to be NO as a NC outlet, so basically a controllable power switch.

 

[Somnifac]

I cant think of a situation where I need to change an outlet to NO/NC on the fly.

It's not an on the fly change that would be needed. It's the ability to change it for reconfiguration. None of us have the last tank we'll ever have. You may want to reuse your reef-pi on a new system with new needs. It's a convenience thing, and completely optional. Planning contingencies for different scenarios and kinda what I do for a living, so I'm probably more sensitive to something like this.

 

[Ryan115]

It's not an on the fly change that would be needed. It's the ability to change it for reconfiguration. None of us have the last tank we'll ever have. You may want to reuse your reef-pi on a new system with new needs. It's a convenience thing, and completely optional. Planning for contingencies different scenarios and kinda what I do for a living, so I'm probably more sensitive to something like this.

I agree with you on contingencies and fail-safes. I work in the marine science field, Murphy's law kicks in hard when you are 100+ miles offshore.

 

[Ranjib]

I think we are OK on the equipments side for the time being. I understand there are things that can be improved. But the current state is not very bad.

I am thinking about macros and better timers... whats the wishlist from folks who are already using it?

 

[Somnifac]

I think we are OK on the equipments side for the time being. I understand there are things that can be improved. But the current state is not very bad.

Definitely. I hope that doesn't come off as saying it's a shortcoming. It's more of an optional wiring that could be at the disposal of a user if they desired. This project has certainly come a very long way.

 

[Ranjib]

Definitely. I hope that doesn't come off as saying it's a shortcoming. It's more of an optional wiring that could be at the disposal of a user if they desired. This project has certainly come a very long way.

Not at all.. we appreciate your thoughts They only improve the project.

 

[Somnifac]

Here's a question since I haven't installed the software yet:

What is the default screen when you load the software through the web interface? Does it go straight the Equipment tab?

(I plan on installing it and poking around in it this weekend)

 

[Ryan115]

I think we are OK on the equipments side for the time being. I understand there are things that can be improved. But the current state is not very bad.

I am thinking about macros and better timers... whats the wishlist from folks who are already using it?

• I have not gotten ATO up yet, maybe this weekend. But I could see multiple floats being advantageous. Perhaps 1 in ATO container to monitor its level, one in sump to turn off skimmer and send alert of high water level, 1 in tank to alert of high water level.
• Leak detector.
• Moonlight phase control
• Wavemaker/pump control - either variable throughout day, or pulsed. I still have a wavebox I may set on my 90g (does anyone else still use waveboxes anymore?) Having the fine scale adjustment for that would be cool but not extremely necessary.
• More user selectable telemetry options - since we are limited to 10 feeds (for free) by Adafruit.

 

[Ranjib]

Here's a question since I haven't installed the software yet:

What is the default screen when you load the software through the web interface? Does it go straight the Equipment tab?

(I plan on installing it and poking around in it this weekend)

Depends on what capability you have enabled. If none, systems tab, otherwise it can be equipments or lighting or ato etc. reef-pi can be configured to run just as ATO or just as kessil controller, in that case only those tabs will be enabled and will be the landing page. If all capabilities are enabled then equipments tab is the landing page..
this might change though.. once we have command center style dashboard .. that may become the landing page, with all the graphs in one place

 

[Somnifac]

I see you anticipated my follow-up question. I think a status/dashboard page might mitigate some confusion.