Removing Cupramine

[ehealy13]

Hello all, I had to add cupramine to my DT to address an issue with what I believe to be ich, but possibly velvet. I'm at day 15, and based on feedback from several credible sources on this forum, and locally, have decided to try to run it for 30 days, but will begin the extraction process if I notice any signs the fish are unhappy. My original plan was to run carbon in the sump (rinsed thoroughly) for 48 hours and then move to Cuprisorb. As I am admittedly new, I didn't realize (until reading recent threads) that the extraction process could also have unwanted side effects, adversely affecting my fish. Any and all experience and advice is appreciated, as I may need to start this process this week, or next, or 15 days as currently planned. Thanks!

 

[RobertTheNurse]

I always assumed NOT to run copper (in your case cupramine) in a DT as it will absorb into the rocks and substrate.

I could be wrong tho.

No quarentine tank to treat?

My fish didn't do well with cupramine. Stopped eating. So I had to remove with Carbon and use Metro.

 

[ehealy13]

I always assumed NOT to run copper (in your case cupramine) in a DT as it will absorb into the rocks and substrate.

I could be wrong tho.

No quarentine tank to treat?

Thanks for the reply Robert!

Ideally, I would have moved to a QT but I couldn't get one up and running in a reasonable amount of time. From what I've read and discussed it can stay in your tank, but can be mostly removed through the 2-part method and with water changes, that I was intending to follow. This particular tank will always be a FOWLR, as I have plans for a separate reef system. I also have plans (hopefully this weekend) to start a QT, or at least have one ready. My concern with the removal is the adverse reaction fish can have to the carbon.

 

[NaturalBrnHeathen]

that the extraction process could also have unwanted side effects, adversely affecting my fish.

Can you share more info on how removing cupramine could have side affects. I'm new myself & plan to run cuprisorb in a week or so.

 

[Doctorgori]

maybe not all that new but following because I didn’t know cupramine was reef safe...
fish only tank perhaps?

 

[ehealy13]

Can you share more info on how removing cupramine could have side affects. I'm new myself & plan to run cuprisorb in a week or so.

I've read of tangs can suffer from HLLE as a result of exposure, or prolonged exposure to carbon. Obviously don't quote me on that, as this is intended for me to gain a better understanding of the process and effect(s).

 

[ehealy13]

maybe not all that new but following because I didn’t know cupramine was reef safe...
fish only tank perhaps?

Hi Doctorgori, I do not believe it is reef safe. Sorry for any confusion. I have a fish only tank that I treated. I plan to add a separate system which will have corals, in the near future.

 

[NaturalBrnHeathen]

I've read of tangs can suffer from HLLE as a result of exposure, or prolonged exposure to carbon. Obviously don't quote me on that, as this is intended for me to gain a better understanding of the process and effect(s).

Ok carbon can cause HLLE per this article by @Jay Hemdal - https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/head-and-lateral-line-erosion-hlle.784/

I'm wondering though, since we have to ramp up cupramine over 2 days, will removing it quickly cause any issues... hmmm...

 

[ehealy13]

Ok carbon can cause HLLE per this article by @Jay Hemdal - https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/head-and-lateral-line-erosion-hlle.784/

I'm wondering though, since we have to ramp up cupramine over 2 days, will removing it quickly cause any issues... hmmm...

It is my understanding that once the therapeutic period is done not having cupramine or copper in the system isn't the biggest concern, as the only benefit is to eradicate the parasites. I also do not believe it is removed quickly or easily, which is the concern when treating a DT. Again, not claiming this is factual, just what I have gleamed while researching and discussing with those more knowledgeable than me.

 

[00W]

It is my understanding that once the therapeutic period is done not having cupramine or copper in the system isn't the biggest concern, as the only benefit is to eradicate the parasites. I also do not believe it is removed quickly or easily, which is the concern when treating a DT. Again, not claiming this is factual, just what I have gleamed while researching and discussing with those more knowledgeable than me.

Not to sound like a professional, but I used Cupramine years ago. I was in the same situation. I used it exactly as the bottle said WITH a copper test kit also by seachem.
I feel their products are top of the line and I've been using them for years. The test is a PITA but I did it every day till ich went away then I went 10 more days.
I had snails and an urchin in there as well. The urchin was eating all my coraline so I really didn't care if he made it or not (sounds terrible I know.)
My angel made it through along with everything else. I used a magum 350 with seagel after. I always use carbon.
I had the tank for years with all kinds of stuff in it. I guess I didn't think about it and trusted seachem that they weren't full of it.
As to carbon affecting fish I have an 6 year old yellow tang. He's lived with seagel and chemi pure blue his whole life. So I can only go on that.
Would I add Cupramine to my display now. No.
But fish only I wouldn't stress on it as long as you're following what I did I guess.
We've got enough to stress about in this hobby. Hope this helps.

 

[ehealy13]

Not to sound like a professional, but I used Cupramine years ago. I was in the same situation. I used it exactly as the bottle said WITH a copper test kit also by seachem.
I feel their products are top of the line and I've been using them for years. The test is a PITA but I did it every day till ich went away then I went 10 more days.
I had snails and an urchin in there as well. The urchin was eating all my coraline so I really didn't care if he made it or not (sounds terrible I know.)
My angel made it through along with everything else. I used a magum 350 with seagel after. I always use carbon.
I had the tank for years with all kinds of stuff in it. I guess I didn't think about it and trusted seachem that they weren't full of it.
As to carbon affecting fish I have an 6 year old yellow tang. He's lived with seagel and chemi pure blue his whole life. So I can only go on that.
Would I add Cupramine to my display now. No.
But fish only I wouldn't stress on it as long as you're following what I did I guess.
We've got enough to stress about in this hobby. Hope this helps.

Thank you, yes it does. Also using the SeaChem test daily and running a reference test every 3 days. The test can be a bit hard to read and can easily see it interpreted between +/- .1 I'm using that along with a watchful eye on the fish, I guess that's silver lining to this whole pandemic, in being home all the time, LOL. Thanks again!

 

[Alchameth]

I've not had luck using Cupramine, since you need it at a .5 level for therapeutic with .8 being toxic and the directions say don't go over.6... so the first 2 times I used it, I used the color scale which is near impossible to accurately see if you are maintaining the correct level and guess that's why it wasn't successful. The last time I used a Hanna checker, went for a .56-58 range to account for the 5% variance to make sure it wasn't below .5. After 30 days in QT at therapeutic levels, I removed the copper via carbon and water changes. 2 weeks of observation and I had fish flashing again.
It's also much harder on fish, specially sensitive ones... like a flametail blenny. Didn't even get it to a therapeutic level, was planning a 4 day ramp up and overnight after 25% of the needed dose it melted his slime coat off and never recovered. Imagine with rock and sand absorbing some of it that was hard to maintain the therapeutic levels.

 

[ehealy13]

I've not had luck using Cupramine, since you need it at a .5 level for therapeutic with .8 being toxic and the directions say don't go over.6... so the first 2 times I used it, I used the color scale which is near impossible to accurately see if you are maintaining the correct level and guess that's why it wasn't successful. The last time I used a Hanna checker, went for a .56-58 range to account for the 5% variance to make sure it wasn't below .5. After 30 days in QT at therapeutic levels, I removed the copper via carbon and water changes. 2 weeks of observation and I had fish flashing again.
It's also much harder on fish, specially sensitive ones... like a flametail blenny. Didn't even get it to a therapeutic level, was planning a 4 day ramp up and overnight after 25% of the needed dose it melted his slime coat off and never recovered. Imagine with rock and sand absorbing some of it that was hard to maintain the therapeutic levels.

Thanks for the reply! Sorry to hear that, as the hope with any of these stressful remedies is full recovery and complete eradication. Yes, the tests are frustrating at best. Before the blizzard I went to the LFS to get the Hanna, but they were sold out and at least 10 days out on delivery, so I'm working on the color chart, unfortunately. At day 15 the trigger fish (which I was sure was lost) is at least 75% and the hippo tang isn't showing any signs of stress. All are eating like savages, knock on wood. Soaking their LRS in vitamins each morning and hoping the cupramine, quality food (which I always use) and vitamins will be a winning formula for their recovery.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Ok carbon can cause HLLE per this article by @Jay Hemdal - https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/head-and-lateral-line-erosion-hlle.784/

I'm wondering though, since we have to ramp up cupramine over 2 days, will removing it quickly cause any issues... hmmm...

Removing copper quickly isn't an issue as long as the method that you use is appropriate. I prefer water changes to be rid of copper, with perhaps some chemical removal at the very end for any residual. I'm not a fan of using carbon, not just due to HLLE, but also because some types of carbon are not designed to remove metals, and others are - but how to tell them apart when dealers don't say which they are selling? The chemist who invented Amquel explained it all to me decades ago, but my chemistry and memory isn't strong enough to recall the details.

Jay

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

Water changes and cuprasorb in a reactor will work well.

 

[ehealy13]

Removing copper quickly isn't an issue as long as the method that you use is appropriate. I prefer water changes to be rid of copper, with perhaps some chemical removal at the very end for any residual. I'm not a fan of using carbon, not just due to HLLE, but also because some types of carbon are not designed to remove metals, and others are - but how to tell them apart when dealers don't say which they are selling? The chemist who invented Amquel explained it all to me decades ago, but my chemistry and memory isn't strong enough to recall the details.

Jay

Thank you Jay! I'm happy to go the water change route, opposed to chemicals. My LFS recommended the carbon and cuprisorb method, and I've found them to be knowledgeable and well intentioned; however, I'd always rather have the experiences of a community and intend to take in and learn from all the information folks are willing to share.

I originally tried treating the fish with vitamins, etc. when I had the first scare last Fall. This time it was just too overwhelming on them, and I actually tried the same method again, which cost me a lion fish and a pink faced wrasse...stinks, both had very cool personalities. Would you try to do a 30 day therapeutic cycle, monitoring the fish closely, or begin the extraction sooner? As mentioned, today marks day 15 and seeing positive results, especially with the trigger (picasso.) Thanks again to you an everyone, what a great community!


Ed

 

[ehealy13]

Water changes and cuprasorb in a reactor will work well.

Thank you! I haven't set up a reactor to date, are they relatively straightforward?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thank you Jay! I'm happy to go the water change route, opposed to chemicals. My LFS recommended the carbon and cuprisorb method, and I've found them to be knowledgeable and well intentioned; however, I'd always rather have the experiences of a community and intend to take in and learn from all the information folks are willing to share.

I originally tried treating the fish with vitamins, etc. when I had the first scare last Fall. This time it was just too overwhelming on them, and I actually tried the same method again, which cost me a lion fish and a pink faced wrasse...stinks, both had very cool personalities. Would you try to do a 30 day therapeutic cycle, monitoring the fish closely, or begin the extraction sooner? As mentioned, today marks day 15 and seeing positive results, especially with the trigger (picasso.) Thanks again to you an everyone, what a great community!


Ed

I always dose copper for 30 days. At an absolute minimum, you should go two weeks beyond the last visible symptom.

Jay

 

[ehealy13]

I always dose copper for 30 days. At an absolute minimum, you should go two weeks beyond the last visible symptom.

Jay

Thank you Jay. In my situation, with live rock and sand when I begin to remove the treatment would you use the Cuprisorb and water change, or just water change?

Sorry, probably should mention my DT is 90g with a basic 10g sump setup, where the water filters through a pad, into bio balls then into the return chamber with a skimmer and return pump (obviously.)

 

[Chrisz]

Is low salinity still an option or is a copper treatment the only choice?