Replacing GFO with Liquid Iron (Iron 2) supplement

[bms270]

I just came across a post on facebook from Australian based company selling Liquid Iron 2 (as they describe it) explaining that it is the liquid form of Rowaphos and it is pretty safe to use. The only caution is about Tangs but they claim that is temporary and they will adjust to elevated Irons within a week or so.

Questions I have:

1. What is Iron 2? They claim Iron 1 is bad but 2 and 3 are fine since they bind with phosphate and extracted by skimmer. What is the chemistry behind the Iron numbers and the reaction differences?

2. They claim this method has been used for 15 years by someone (Glenf from DSReefing) with success without any negative side effect. If so how come such simple method has not gained market attention to this date?

3. With liquid dosing, it is much easier to adjust the phosphate to the desired level and maintain it. Cost and maintenance is also seem to be lower or equal compared to using GFO so wondering if this has been tried in the past and if so is there any negative side effects?

Any input is appreciated.

 

[homer1475]

Never heard of it.

If one wants to dose a liquid thats better then GFO, Lanthanum chloride would be the ticket.

 

[Miami Reef]

There are several approaches that add soluble metals to bind and precipitate phosphate. The most popular involves adding lanthanum, which precipitates as lanthanum phosphate and/or lanthanum carbonate (which itself may contain some lanthanum phosphate). The lanthanum approach is widely used in the pool industry to reduce phosphate, and seems to often work well in aquaria. It is also very inexpensive, using products such as Seaklear (make sure it is a pure lanthanum version as mixtures with other metals also exist). Note that this method reduces alkalinity, as removing carbonate and phosphate as a lanthanum precipitate will reduce alkalinity.

One way to use it is to drip is slowly just upstream of a particulate filter to catch and remove a substantial amount of the precipitate that is formed. One drawback to the lanthanum approach is that much of the precipitated material may escape capture and simply settle out in the system somewhere. That may not be an issue, but many aquarists do not prefer to accumulate such material. A second concern is that some people have observed problematic reactionsfrom aquarium inhabitants. While there are not a lot of such stories, it is enough for many aquarists to look for other options.

However, due to its low cost, this approach is especially well suited to outside of the tank operations, such as the removal of excess phosphate from phosphate-contaminated calcium carbonate rock that is later to be added to a reef aquarium.

Soluble iron has also been used in this way, but not nearly so often as lanthanum.

Phosphate in the Reef Aquarium

The phosphorus atom is one of living matter's basic building blocks. It is present in every living creature and in every reef aquarium's water. Unfortunately, it is often present in excess in reef aquaria, and that excess has the potential to cause at least two substantial problems for...

www.reefedition.com

I added the bold in the last sentence of the quote.

 

[bms270]

Thanks @Miami Reef for the article. Seems like Lanthanum and Iron ions react with phosphate in a similar fashion. With that said, I am wondering why such products have not been mass produced in the market. As per @Randy Holmes-Farley article about Iron, it seems like it is plausible to dose Iron in certain scenarios as it seems to be a healthy supplement for organisms consuming oxygen (Fish, Macro Algae, etc.).

GFO is messy, expensive, needs more maintenance and is difficult to maintain a steady level of phosphate with it. Yet it is advised as the best official way to reduce phosphate...

 

[rtparty]

Sounds to me like it is just Lanthanum Chloride and they have some clever marketing going on but I could be completely wrong.

The thing that makes me weary is the part about tangs. Lanthanum Chloride is known to harm tangs and they specifically caution about this. They could be calling it Iron 2 just for some marketing material.

I could also be completely wrong in my assumption and accept that too

 

[bms270]

Sounds to me like it is just Lanthanum Chloride and they have some clever marketing going on but I could be completely wrong.

The thing that makes me weary is the part about tangs. Lanthanum Chloride is known to harm tangs and they specifically caution about this. They could be calling it Iron 2 just for some marketing material.

I could also be completely wrong in my assumption and accept that too

Could be but wouldn't it be possible to run ICP or other forms of tests to see what is in the liquid they sell? I am willing to purchase and submit a test to see what is inside. They cannot lie about such a thing IMO.

 

[rtparty]

Could be but wouldn't it be possible to run ICP or other forms of tests to see what is in the liquid they sell? I am willing to purchase and submit a test to see what is inside. They cannot lie about such a thing IMO.

I don't know if an ICP would tell you what is in it. Look at the Vibrant thread and all the testing it took to figure that out

 

[rtparty]

Here is a link to another thread...

"Liquid GFO" dosing experience?

Curious if anyone is using or has used this product? First time I've come across it. In theory I guess it could work. They claim it is not LC but it sure does sound like what happens if you dose LC... If it is some form of iron, I'm a bit skeptic because I've had a lot of acro losses in the past...

www.reef2reef.com

Sounds like the same thing

 

[bms270]

I don't know if an ICP would tell you what is in it. Look at the Vibrant thread and all the testing it took to figure that out

Definitely will check that since I was wondering about that too but they claim they sell bacteria which is not a chemical element. ICP does not test for La but it does test for Fe. So assuming elevated Fe should be obvious if I send out just the liquid from their bottle... Maybe I am wrong but makes kind of sense...

 

[rtparty]

Definitely will check that since I was wondering about that too but they claim they sell bacteria which is not a chemical element. ICP does not test for La but it does test for Fe. So assuming elevated Fe should be obvious if I send out just the liquid from their bottle... Maybe I am wrong but makes kind of sense...

Vibrant isn't a bacteria at all. That is a different topic and one that has hundreds of pages on it.

I was simply stating an ICP may not be enough to figure out what a solution is

 

[bms270]

Here is a link to another thread...

"Liquid GFO" dosing experience?

Curious if anyone is using or has used this product? First time I've come across it. In theory I guess it could work. They claim it is not LC but it sure does sound like what happens if you dose LC... If it is some form of iron, I'm a bit skeptic because I've had a lot of acro losses in the past...

www.reef2reef.com

Sounds like the same thing

Thats it. Reading it. Thanks for sharing. It did not pop in my initial search..

 

[homer1475]

Some people dose soluble iron to control phosphate.

As far as I know, it's part of Glennf's DSR system.

Theres your answer.

 

[bms270]

Vibrant isn't a bacteria at all. That is a different topic and one that has hundreds of pages on it.

I was simply stating an ICP may not be enough to figure out what a solution is

Interesting. I'd look that one up too. I bought a bottle and is still sealed until I know whats inside of it. I agree its out of this topic..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes, some folks dose a lot of soluble iron to control phosphate.

It’s highly misleading to call it liquid GFO because it is not liquid GFO any more than calcium chloride solution is liquid aragonite.

it may be fine to use, but iron is not all rainbows and unicorns. It has a dark side where it can catalyze some undesirable reactions, potentially damaging tissues (e.g., Fenton chemistry). I have no idea if that is significant in a reef tank, but it is a concern when driving iron to concentrations vastly higher than surface seawater.

 

[Sean Clark]

Thanks @Miami Reef for the article. Seems like Lanthanum and Iron ions react with phosphate in a similar fashion. With that said, I am wondering why such products have not been mass produced in the market. As per @Randy Holmes-Farley article about Iron, it seems like it is plausible to dose Iron in certain scenarios as it seems to be a healthy supplement for organisms consuming oxygen (Fish, Macro Algae, etc.).

GFO is messy, expensive, needs more maintenance and is difficult to maintain a steady level of phosphate with it. Yet it is advised as the best official way to reduce phosphate...

My opinion... the reason you do not see Lanthanum Chloride advertised is because reefing is a consumable item hobby. The more someone can sell you, the more money you spend and they make. Marketing is never about what is "best". I have been using the same bottle of LC for over 6 years. One time purchase.
The seller will tell you that GFO is safe... to that I say everything in moderation.
This is the same reason sulfur denitrators are not marketed; no consumables. They would rather sell you nopox or something similar that keeps you coming back for more.