return plumbing-is this asking for an overflow?

[Tabasco1]

Set up
I have a 45g dt and 40g sump/fuge. I was running a mag 9.5, but it was pushing SO much water, the pump was crazy noisy and could not get rid of the gurgle in the durso.

SO I switched to a mag 5. My durso is 1" ID for the standpipe that reduces to 3/4" at the bulkhead and then opens back up to 1" for max flow. Now the pump is quiet. BUT, the mag 5 cannot pump enough to keep the water level in the overflow box close to the teeth so there is a waterfall sound.

Question
I have a gate valve on the drain plumbing. I have restricted flow in the drain pipe to raise the flow in the overflow box. Now it is silent. If I restrict flow too much the tank would over flow. Is there any danger with matching the drain flow to the return pump? I have them balanced now and it is very stable in the overflow box. I'm worried I'm not thinking about something or missing something and this is an overflow waiting to happen. Is it??

TIA

 

[Reefing Madness]

Do not restrict the drain in any way.
Branch off the return line instead, going back to the sump with a ball valve ,using this you can fine tune the bigger pump.
Also, you don't usually want to go from 1" to 3/4" to 1" for a drain, it won't drain the usual amount of water correctly. And I don't have the calculator for the spread. You want a 1" drain, with a 3/4" return, normally.

 

[AZDesertRat]

Instead of wasting power by returning flow to the sump, install the ball or gate valve in the discharge line of the return pump so you can throttle or restrict the return flow. This is actually easier on the pump since it is not being required to work as hard dueto the additional head placed on the pump so power consumption goes down as does heat generation and noise. I know it doesn't make sense but it is easily proven using a Kill A Watt meter and a digital thermometer. If you are into science and reading it has to do with Bernoulli's Theory and The Laws of Affinity which help it make sense.

Another option is to raise your standpipe so the water does not drop as far going over the teeth.

 

[Tabasco1]

Thanks for the responses. The actual issue is not that I have too much flow from the return, but that my return pump cannot keep up with the drain capacity. I am restricting the drain, the return pump is wide open. The drain pipe for the most part is 1" (it narrows at the bulkhead to 3/4" and then widens back up), and the return line is 3/4".

There is about 4" drop from the top of the overflow box to the opening of my durso pipe. If I don't restrict the drain line the water falls 4". There isn't much room in the overflow box for a bean animal type overflow.

Is there any issue with me restricting the drain? Is that a potential overflow waiting to happen? Does that make better sense?

 

[Tabasco1]

I don't want to raise my durso... that would be a last option, becuase the return line clears the top of the durso pump to fit nicely into cut outs back into the tank. If I raised the durso to match that water level the return lines would have to come up over that pipe.

I could look at other stand pipes to get closer to the top if a stockman or gurgle buster would get the water level in the overflow box higher.

TIA!!

 

[Finnaddict]

I agree with what both post above. But if you want a quiet overflow you need to get that stand pipe raised up as high as possible. Also if you want to stop the gurgle you need to fine tune your durso. Any gurgle or flushing can be taken care of by drilling the hole in the top of your durso bigger. I always start with a small drill bit and step my way up slowly until it drains quiet and consistent, but be careful as to not drill too big of a hole though.

 

[Tabasco1]

Thanks Finn,

The 2 initial answers are addressing a different issue than I have, a pump that is too strong. My drain has more capacity than my pump.

I have drilled a 1/4' hole in the top of my durso with a shut off valve to control the actual opening. I have the gurgling under control. The issue I'm having is with the waterfall into the overflow. At full open the water level does not rise. I have the water level as high as it can go with drilling holes. I have 4 of them in the top of the pipe actually to try to raise it. I have maxed that out.

The drain pipe takes the water out faster than my pump can add it at full power. In order to adjust the height of the water in the actual overflow section I have to restrict the drain flow to raise the water so that it doesn't fall 4".

I hope that makes sense.

The question is... does restricting the DRAIN line pose any potential overflow problem?

TIA!

 

[maroun.c]

+1 on controling the pump and not restricting the drain.

 

[Reefpro]

So to answer your question......yes restricting your drain can cause an issue if you do not have other fail safes in place. What you are essentially doing is tuning the drain to match the return which is how the "bean animal" style overflow works. If you can I would add an emergency drain with the standpipe being taller than the other and not restrict in any way. This will take over should your main drain get clogged via debris or snails or something inadvertently end up in your tank. If this is not possible then maybe go for a Mag 7 pump

 

[AZDesertRat]

Your only option then is to raise the standpipe. I like my Stockman as it is much more compact than the Durso and can be fine tuned to be totally silent with a short piece of airline tubing. I have seen reefers make an adjustable height standpipe by using a PVC "telscope" or repair coupling. Search Spears S-118, SH-118,S-119 orSH-119 for a picture of the couplings. They expand and contract with O ring seals so you can adjust the height of the standpipe up to a 2-3"up and down to get it just right.

 

[Tabasco1]

So to answer your question......yes restricting your drain can cause an issue if you do not have other fail safes in place. What you are essentially doing is tuning the drain to match the return which is how the "bean animal" style overflow works. If you can I would add an emergency drain with the standpipe being taller than the other and not restrict in any way. This will take over should your main drain get clogged via debris or snails or something inadvertently end up in your tank. If this is not possible then maybe go for a Mag 7 pump

Thanks. This is what I was thinking may be the issue. I could upsize my pump, I was hoping not to as I am pretty sure the 5 gives enough turnover through the return (I have 2 MP10 for circulation on the tank). And I am very happy with the noise level of the pump. But if I can't figure out may go that route. Looked at the Ehiem and Tunze returns as well, the reviews have them as quieter.

 

[Tabasco1]

haha. Can't figure out how to quote 2 ppl in same post.

Thanks AZ. I'll try this option first. I don't have room for bean animal so durso and stockman were only options. Have you tried the gurgle buster?

I'll look at the telescoping drain.

Your only option then is to raise the standpipe. I like my Stockman as it is much more compact than the Durso and can be fine tuned to be totally silent with a short piece of airline tubing. I have seen reefers make an adjustable height standpipe by using a PVC "telscope" or repair coupling. Search Spears S-118, SH-118,S-119 orSH-119 for a picture of the couplings. They expand and contract with O ring seals so you can adjust the height of the standpipe up to a 2-3"up and down to get it just right.

 

[Finnaddict]

Thanks Finn,

The 2 initial answers are addressing a different issue than I have, a pump that is too strong. My drain has more capacity than my pump.

I have drilled a 1/4' hole in the top of my durso with a shut off valve to control the actual opening. I have the gurgling under control. The issue I'm having is with the waterfall into the overflow. At full open the water level does not rise. I have the water level as high as it can go with drilling holes. I have 4 of them in the top of the pipe actually to try to raise it. I have maxed that out.

The drain pipe takes the water out faster than my pump can add it at full power. In order to adjust the height of the water in the actual overflow section I have to restrict the drain flow to raise the water so that it doesn't fall 4".

I hope that makes sense.

The question is... does restricting the DRAIN line pose any potential overflow problem?

TIA!

The level in your overflow doesn't have anything to do with the size of the return pump, it has to do with the height of your drain pipe and a drain pipe (any style) does not make water drain any faster. IMO a pump is never too big unless your drain cant handle it and the tank overflows so the 9.5 might of just needed some durso tuning to work right and the Mag 5 is a good pump for your size tank because its gives you almost a 10 times an hour turn over. YES the way you have this plumbed by restricting the drain is asking for trouble. I would never put a valve on my drain. Install the valve on the return side of things like mentioned before so you can throttle it down before it goes into the tank and have full control. Hope this helps.

 

[Tabasco1]

Thanks Finn

Helps. I think we are talking about the same thing, but different ways of thinking about it. It absolutely has to do with the height over the entrace to the overflow. The 9.5 could pump enough that by adjusting the air intake would adjust/raise the level of water in the overflow. I could bring the water over the entrace of the intake. With the mag 5 those adjustments didn't work, it wasn't powerful enough to raise the water level. The water level always stayed at the level of the entrance.

I'm going to work on a new stand pipe to raise the entrance to the overflow.

 

[Reefpro]

W

Thanks Finn

Helps. I think we are talking about the same thing, but different ways of thinking about it. It absolutely has to do with the height over the entrace to the overflow. The 9.5 could pump enough that by adjusting the air intake would adjust/raise the level of water in the overflow. I could bring the water over the entrace of the intake. With the mag 5 those adjustments didn't work, it wasn't powerful enough to raise the water level. The water level always stayed at the level of the entrance.

I'm going to work on a new stand pipe to raise the entrance to the overflow.

You have not mentioned anything abouthow you have plumbed this. Maybe you have too much head loss for the mag 5 to adequately raise the height of the water in ur overflow box. Another option would be to just lower your stand pipe. Height of stand pipe is only relevant to want you need to accomplish. Hope this helps. Some pumps are not meant to be "throttled" down and can cause damage or lessen the life span. It's best to size as closer to your needs as possible. I always leave room for expansion by oversizing my pump and using a manifold to supply other things. and contrary to what some think you can definitely oversize a pump and cause problems. Sure I could make Reeflo dart work on a 40g breeder by adding or upsizing the drains or run a bypass into the sump, but do your math look at head loss and size accordingly and don't forget to leave room for expansion.

 

[AZDesertRat]

Throttling centrifugal does not harm them period, end of story. Read up on centrifugal force and hydrodynamics. The Mag 9.5 is probably a little large for a 45G display and 40G sump but not excessvely so.

Shortening the standpipe will make their situation worse as the water will cascading even further down inside he overflow box maing even more noise.

 

[GreatWhiteTang]

Change 1 inch to 3/4 inch for sandpipe and add valve if the smaller plumbing can't keep up

 

[GreatWhiteTang]

Regardless though I don't think anything but raising your sandpipe would help without changing to a different style system

 

[Tabasco1]

I've thought about this option as well, but didn't know if it would help. All the recommendations are that your drain is larger than your return so reluctant. Also, would it help to reduce the durso diameter but leave the plumbing at 1" below the bulkhead?

When I have seen videos on durso stand pipe it does show the water level over top of the elbow for the intake and going up the vent stack, but not covering any vent holes. So it seems that I should be able to have the water level be above the durso entrance.

Seems like my options are:
A. reduce diameter of durso
B. switch to stockman stand pipe
C. upgrad to a slightly larger return

Of these options, what is most ideal?

With this tank I do not have the option of bean animal. UNLESS.... I ran the return up over the back of the tank and used both bottom holes as drains.... Let's take that off the table for the moment though. That will require me drilling through the back glass and I think I will want to upgrade tanks before doing that.

Change 1 inch to 3/4 inch for sandpipe and add valve if the smaller plumbing can't keep up

 

[GreatWhiteTang]

I run a 9.5 on a 1 inch bulk head.. Have a 1.25 inch sandpipe with 1.5 inch plumbing from bulkhead to sump.. With a reverse durso.. The sandpipe and reverse durso underneath made the draining silent.. But was still hearing the waterfall at the overflow.. I tooled around with a few options and realized that switching to smaller piping and sending more water over did quiet but was unstable and even though it would go days fine I would notice and catch it almost overflowing and having to turn down my pump and let the pipe. Catch up. Making my sandpipe taller was the only thing that resulted in my desired noise level and was safely consistent to prevent flood now I'm 6 months since the tank switch and not had to adjust any of the flow and it is near silent.. Judt a site trickle but that's how I like it! I would try a stockman or somehow make the sandpipe taller