Return pumps do you really get what you pay for?

[KStatefan]

I would like to see BRS do a video series on pumps.
A real test of head height with different sizes of plumbing and say routing.
Most everyone will have a minimum of 5 feet head height and a few 90s and maybe a 45 to a lockline fitting.

In my thought only the small and large pumps from the same manufacturer need to be tested. No need to go through all the sizes.

Just need the pumps, three sizes of plumbing in the same configuration.
Also need vertical runs to determine actual head height.

Premeasured 50 gallons of water and a stop watch.
But they have to test and compair with the manufacturers specifications.
That would be a real eye opener for the majority.

Bet the manufacturer's would not appreciate this, and BRS may feel some pressure.

A flow meter and a pressure gauge is all you would need to test all sorts of configurations

 

[K7BMG]

A flow meter and a pressure gauge is all you would need to test all sorts of configurations

As I understand I thought all our pumps were flow pumps.
How would the preasure guage work for us in this aplication?
I do not fully understand hydraulics enough to comprehend the benefit of the preasure gauge in such testing.

I can put my hand over any of my aquarium pumps outputs and compleatly stop the flow yet the impeller will continue to spin. Yes there is some preasure behind it but its minimal at best.

I have tried this with a pump designed for preasure vs flow. The preasure was greater than I could overcome and stop it.

Interested in understanding and learning about this.

 

[DCR]

As I understand I thought all our pumps were flow pumps.
How would the preasure guage work for us in this aplication?
I do not fully understand hydraulics enough to comprehend the benefit of the preasure gauge in such testing.

I can put my hand over any of my aquarium pumps outputs and compleatly stop the flow yet the impeller will continue to spin. Yes there is some preasure behind it but its minimal at best.

I have tried this with a pump designed for preasure vs flow. The preasure was greater than I could overcome and stop it.

Interested in understanding and learning about this.

A pressure gauge gives you the discharge head the pump is delivering - 2.3 feet of head per psi. Could also just use a clear standpipe and measure the liquid elevation for low heads (a manometer) which would probably be more accurate. Keep in mind the flow rate decreases with increasing system backpressure (head) on the discharge side of the pump. I doubt BRS would ever do such a test because it might show their suppliers head curves are not correct. I have been tempted to do it myself just for fun when I see statements that DC pumps do not handle high head well, but the cost of the pump(s) and test equipment is a major obstacle.

 

[K7BMG]

A pressure gauge gives you the discharge head the pump is delivering - 2.3 feet of head per psi. Could also just use a clear standpipe and measure the liquid elevation for low heads (a manometer) which would probably be more accurate. Keep in mind the flow rate decreases with increasing system backpressure (head) on the discharge side of the pump. I doubt BRS would ever do such a test because it might show their suppliers head curves are not correct. I have been tempted to do it myself just for fun when I see statements that DC pumps do not handle high head well, but the cost of the pump(s) and test equipment is a major obstacle.

I see. Thanks for the info.
Yes I know that such tests would be very negative against the manufacturers charts.

Like Sgt. Joe Friday says
Just the facts Ma'am..

In the end I feel this could help solve some issues, with flow and function of our filtration setups.

 

[K7BMG]

A pressure gauge gives you the discharge head the pump is delivering - 2.3 feet of head per psi. Could also just use a clear standpipe and measure the liquid elevation for low heads (a manometer) which would probably be more accurate. Keep in mind the flow rate decreases with increasing system backpressure (head) on the discharge side of the pump. I doubt BRS would ever do such a test because it might show their suppliers head curves are not correct. I have been tempted to do it myself just for fun when I see statements that DC pumps do not handle high head well, but the cost of the pump(s) and test equipment is a major obstacle.

I might even buy a ticket to see Ryan and Randy test pumps with a clear stand pipe and see who gets soaked. ROFL.

 

[KStatefan]

As I understand I thought all our pumps were flow pumps.
How would the preasure guage work for us in this aplication?
I do not fully understand hydraulics enough to comprehend the benefit of the preasure gauge in such testing.

I can put my hand over any of my aquarium pumps outputs and compleatly stop the flow yet the impeller will continue to spin. Yes there is some preasure behind it but its minimal at best.

I have tried this with a pump designed for preasure vs flow. The preasure was greater than I could overcome and stop it.

Interested in understanding and learning about this.

@DCR already answered but head is the amount of pressure a water column x ft high generates. You can convert head ft to psi by multiplying ft by .43 to get psi. I do not know that the flow charts are inaccurate but more that hobbyist under estimate the fictional loss or do not even look at a flow chart and just go by advertised flow.

 

[Anchor]

Sicce has a 5 year warranty.. so its covered if it does fail.. And for the money, it pumps hard and quietly.

 

[Yannic555]

I have an M2 and it’s amazing. Never had a single problem. Also... I heard if anything ecotech breaks... they send you a new one for free no problem

 

[PhreeByrd]

I do not know that the flow charts are inaccurate but more that hobbyist under estimate the fictional loss or do not even look at a flow chart and just go by advertised flow.

I think you're right abut this. When I was shopping and looking at the Varios, I needed to email the company to get the pump and controller specs because I could not find flow curves for their pumps anywhere. Maybe they have started making these public as part of their advertising by now, but I would never buy a pump without seeing its flow curve first. But obviously a whole lot of people have done exactly that.

 

[TLO45]

I have used a lot of different return pumps through the years. From Eheims, mags, reeflo, fluvals, sicce, varios and more I’m probably forgetting about. A few years back I decided to give an Abyzz a whirl. At that time many vendors were out of stock and I was itchy to try a high end pump so I decided a Red Dragon was going to be “the one”! Never looked back once! Although I have not personally tried an Abyzz I feel these two pumps are similar and in a class by themselves. Many believe its wasted money. I say money well spent if you never have to deal with issues! I’ve had my RD running for over 2 years without a single cleaning (yes will do that soon) or a single sound or performance drop! The impeller alone is justification you have attained a different level! I’ve seen Abyzz pumps and would venture to say they are at the same level! I believe there is equipment one does not need to go high end on and get similar results with. I have had return pumps go out on me over the years (usually when I’m out of town) and must say the RD gives me peace of mind! Not saying it won’t ever happen, but the robustness gives me a secure feeling! Personally if I added up all the pumps I have purchased through the years and then scrapped I would have easily purchased the RD a number of times over. Just my personal opinion.

 

[92Miata]

I have used a lot of different return pumps through the years. From Eheims, mags, reeflo, fluvals, sicce, varios and more I’m probably forgetting about. A few years back I decided to give an Abyzz a whirl. At that time many vendors were out of stock and I was itchy to try a high end pump so I decided a Red Dragon was going to be “the one”! Never looked back once! Although I have not personally tried an Abyzz I feel these two pumps are similar and in a class by themselves. Many believe its wasted money. I say money well spent if you never have to deal with issues! I’ve had my RD running for over 2 years without a single cleaning (yes will do that soon) or a single sound or performance drop! The impeller alone is justification you have attained a different level! I’ve seen Abyzz pumps and would venture to say they are at the same level! I believe there is equipment one does not need to go high end on and get similar results with. I have had return pumps go out on me over the years (usually when I’m out of town) and must say the RD gives me peace of mind! Not saying it won’t ever happen, but the robustness gives me a secure feeling! Personally if I added up all the pumps I have purchased through the years and then scrapped I would have easily purchased the RD a number of times over. Just my personal opinion.

Bolding is mine. Begin rant.

Given the extremely low volume that both these pumps are sold at - there are plenty of threads on here about people having issues (both abyzz and red dragon) - and a whole lot of cognitive dissonance from people trying to justify their expenditures.

We just had a thread where a guy thought it was totally normal for his $900 red dragon to not start back up after power outages - something I wouldn't put up with from one of my $59 jebaos - but people who pay $900 for return pumps seem to be able to rationalize.

Don't get me wrong - Abyzz (and RE) makes beautiful pumps, and Abyzz's 10 year warranty is fantastic - but its still a consumer grade warranty - and it has an out for calcium deposits and other things you expect to find in a reef pump. When you get into real warranties (like enterprise equipment) they start paying you for downtime. Until they start doing that, or start actually publishing mtbf, or independently gathered usage statistics, I have no reason to believe they're significantly more reliable than anything else.

A significant part of that $2000 you pay for an Abyzz is really for service - they have fantastic service - but I don't know about you - I'd rather have an extra pump sitting in a box on standby - and a redundant one in my sump - than know that the manufacturer will overnight me a new one.

Two $50 jebaos with another one in the closet is a safer solution than one $2000 abyzz. I'd much rather bet on redundancy than bet on abyzz's being able to ship me a pump fast enough that I don't lose everything - especially when they're not willing to guarantee uptime - and not willing to warranty livestock losses due to failures of their incredibly expensive equipment. (I mean, if you have $6k to spend on return pumps, go ahead and buy 3 abyzzs - they're fantastic)

If I'm gonna pay 2 grand for a return pump - I want to be treated like I am when I pay for server equipment - "It won't fail - and if it does, we'll get a new one to you within 4 hours - and if we can't - we pay you"

 

[K7BMG]

All of this is like Amazon with the shipping.
Yea the Manufacturer's can get it to the shipper as per warrenty or mandate but then its no longer in their control.
So if it takes 5 days to get to you, well is it their fault at that point?
Nope and more and more the manufacturer is not going to honor any claim. This all due to Covid-19.

I know this has nothing to do with the pump itself but something to considder when reviewing warranties and other things.

 

[S2G]

I'm sold on fluval sp with the askoll motor.

 

[Anchor]

I'm a believer that a return pump needs simple on/off controls so Sicce AC pumps for me.

I tend to agree. and you cant beat a Sicce..

 

[Anchor]

Do you guys know the warranties on these pumps. I know Abyzz is 10 and rd3 is 2. I’ve heard tunze has 5 so I’m going to look into them possibly. Does anyone know the varios?

Sicce is 5 years as well

 

[Chibils]

Sicce is 5 years as well

Only on the new Syncra ADV range, right? Or is it all their pumps?

 

[Anchor]

All of them if you register them.. I even have it on my 250gph powerhead. Just looked.. its 3 year on the voyageur series
Nanos..

 

[Anchor]

Only on the new Syncra ADV range, right? Or is it all their pumps?

3 year on the small pumps.. Nano and voyageur and smll pump lienes.. Looks like 5 year on everything else, including skimmer pumps.

 

[Lightspeed]

I was in the same position as you, weighing up which return to buy, I now have 2 RD3 DC pumps, one on my skimmer SM200 and a 100W for my return, in my build thread i did post quite a few detailed pics of the 100W RD3 Flow version which i purchased, with vernier measurements of the components, the RD3 speedies also have slow start loading and slow shutdown loading too they are really a rock solid pump, i have not had mine running long as my display is still new, i ended up going RD3 over the Abyzz simply due to financial outlay, the Abyzz juice was not worth the squeeze regarding my outlook on warranties.
I think if i were to do it again i would have just bought the RD3 230W DC for the sake of a few hundred $ more, future proofing myself and just control the output to your desire, my 100W RD3 runs at 70W that's as much as my overflow can handle through 1" 1/2 return back to sump.
Both the RD3 DC speedies i own are DEAD SILENT, in fact unless you can see bubbles in the skimmer and see the continuous flow through the socks you would question if they were running. My display is in my living room so silence was a key build factor.


Regarding warranties though and cost of merch, in my past experience, i have found even with long warranty periods when it came to claiming, the manufacturer in my case used any reason under the sun to avoid a claim, so i am a mid level higher tier purchaser nowadays. It was my experience that top $ for a top tier brand really just translated to the manufacturer claims personnel insinuating i could not afford to own their item as i could not afford to replace it.......yeah for real, was not a happy vegemite that day. I have never purchased that brand ever since and am perfectly happy and am no longer a brand snob;Happy, i just do plenty of research and price my budget according to my standards that i have set myself and purchase accordingly.