Rev's 400+ Gallon Basement Inwall

[143MPCo]

Help me understand something as I too am doing some recent plumbing. I didn't think drains needed any valves to control the flow? I just thought the return used one?

From Bean:

The solution was simple. Incorporate a siphon into the overflow setup and back it up with an open channel standpipe. If the siphon is adjusted to a flow rate that is slightly lower than what the return pump provides, then water will backup in the overflow box and be handled by the second (open channel) standpipe. If the system is adjusted properly then the volume of water flowing through the second standpipe will gently cling to the walls of the pipe and be silent. A benefit of such a setup is that the siphon standpipe can handle a significantly higher flow than an identical standpipe that has water mixed with air. I added a third standpipe to the system that stays dry during normal operation. This third standpipe provides some of the fail-safe features that allow for either of the two primary standpipes to become fully clogged without causing a flood or system malfunction!

And the reasons why you need the valves.

 

[tripdad]

Can someone with more time than me please double check something for Rev? If my memory is correct on a bean animal you have NO valve on the full siphon and a "throttle" valve on the secondary drain? This is what sets the flow and keeps it running at a full siphon on the primary if my aged brain recalls correctly. Sorry, was typing again, maybe 143MPCo has already double checked and found me wrong again

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

It's fine if silence is not a primary concern, but the failsafe operation kind of ties together with the silent operation of a BA 3-pipe system...and once you get that puppy tuned, you'll never want to go back to any other kind of overflow drain system. I run one that pushes nearly 3000 GPH and you don't hear even a trickle of water

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

Can someone with more time than me please double check something for Rev? If my memory is correct on a bean animal you have NO valve on the full siphon and a "throttle" valve on the secondary drain? This is what sets the flow and keeps it running at a full siphon on the primary if my aged brain recalls correctly.

Opposite. Valve only on the siphon, no valve on the open channel or emergency.

The purpose of the OC is to take ~5-10% of the flow when the Siphon is tuned to match or just be under the flow rate of the return pump, ensuring that it is always full of water. Water only skins the OC and not enough flow to cause it to close off internally and suck air down with the water that is flowing through it

The OC allows the siphon to operate in full siphon mode across a rather wide range of flow

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Opposite. Valve only on the siphon, no valve on the open channel or emergency.

So this can be ran into a 3" pipe like I am proposing?

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

I believe you really want the OC and Emergency lines to go to the sump and terminate just below the operational water line. The OC needs to be able to partially or fully purge the air out and take over as the siphon. But in an instance where that happens, it won't run as a siphon but rather will close off and flush the box, and oscillate between filling and flushing, this is your audible warning that something is wrong.

When I has a snail get sucked into the siphon (while doing maintenance and having the emergency out of operation/blocked) the OC balanced out and was just sitting there with the overflow box at the lowest level, sucking air. It was freaky and I was sitting there with my hand on the power cord to unplug the pump but I didn't need to...it worked exactly as intended, and it's worked that way 2 other times when I've been out of town and had to walk the owner of the tank through fixing it

 

[143MPCo]

Better cutout view.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

So this can be ran into a 3" pipe like I am proposing?

I'm not sure it would operate properly....in fact I'm relatively sure it wouldn't, not as a failsafe method. You would have to treat the 3" pipe like a pseudo-sump and I can't see how that would work, because it would inject another point of failure.

I get the idea though. Remind me, is this getting routed to the sump...where? Off to the side?

It would work better to replace the 3" pipe with an open-top trough of some kind, like a gutter. That would allow for proper BA operation.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

For reference...answered my own question

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

Better cutout view.

I get the idea. The trouble is trying to ensure that the siphon line, in order to remain running as a siphon, need to terminate below the water surface without getting airlocked. so you would have to have some way to ensuring that the point where the siphon enters the pipe is a point where the water level is always above it. Which usually means valving the 3" pipe back, or allowing it to fill up to a given point. I can actually see a couple ways to do this using elbows, 45s, etc on the end that drains out to the sump now that I think about it. Basically you force the 3" pipe to always be full of water, and the vents allow air to collect and escape....

yeah....that might actually work...

 

[ithk21620]

I am not concerned with noise.

I know you say you're not concerned with noise but once you have a bean animal plumbed up correctly you may change your mind. My system use to flow into a larger pipe on the drain side similar to what you are proposing but not exactly. I thought bigger the better but I was wrong. The larger pipe actually caused the system to be louder because the water / air mixture is where your noise comes from. I would shy away from this idea personally.

 

[143MPCo]

It would work better to replace the 3" pipe with an open-top trough of some kind, like a gutter.

You are 100% right!

Thus the vents to "act" like an open trough.

The trouble is trying to ensure that the siphon line, in order to remain running as a siphon, need to terminate below the water surface without getting airlocked. so you would have to have some way to ensuring that the point where the siphon enters the pipe is a point where the water level is always above it. Which usually means valving the 3" pipe back, or allowing it to fill up to a given point. I can actually see a couple ways to do this using elbows, 45s, etc on the end that drains out to the sump now that I think about it. Basically you force the 3" pipe to always be full of water, and the vents allow air to collect and escape....

yeah....that might actually work...

The plan is to also add valves on the final drains connecting the sump.

 

[Brew12]

You are 100% right!

Thus the vents to "act" like an open trough.

The plan is to also add valves on the final drains connecting the sump.

If the pipe goes in through the side of the sump then it will act like an extension of the sump and it should run fairly quietly. Not sure if that is possible with this system or what the intent is.

By "final drains" do you mean between the end of the 3" pipe and the sump itself?

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

The plan is to also add valves on the final drains connecting the sump.

This is the additional failure point that I was referring to. If there is a blockage there, the whole BA system is moot. I wouldn't do that.

Instead what i would do is this: at the end-run of the 3" pipe, go into a 45 angled up and then into a straight section, then another 45 to horizontal again. The second horizontal section should be high enough to force the water level in the section where the drains terminate to be full all the time.

Then, after the second straight section, go into the side outlet of a tee which is significantly larger (like a 6" pipe with a 3" side tee inlet) and then a pipe down into the sump and another short section above it for vent and splash prevention (from the water exiting the 3" pipe)

Better: make the trough pipe a 4 or 6" pipe. The "bigger is not better" is likely because the second 45-up-45-horizontal wasn't done (i.e. trough pipe not flooded)

Better: slope the trough pipe, just slightly, toward the sump

Vent: should really only need one, at the far end of the pipe (opposite of sump) but maybe also one off the 2nd 45 back to horizontal (to bleed off any air that might cause an airlock or cyclical purging situation). These are the 2 high point where you would need to be concerned about air collecting, any additional ones are OK but just not necessary. Note that any vent that is located in the path of flow is a potential point where the water passing through the pipe (depending on flow rate) might "suck" air from the vent into the flow. Which is why you want the trough pipe fully flooded all the time, even to the point where the high point on the opposite end of the sump would be a few inches under (effectively) so that there would be 1-2 " of water up into the vent pipes along the way, if that makes sense.

 

[143MPCo]

If the pipe goes in through the side of the sump then it will act like an extension of the sump and it should run fairly quietly. Not sure if that is possible with this system or what the intent is.

By "final drains" do you mean between the end of the 3" pipe and the sump itself?

Sorry poor choice of words on my part...

The 3" will sit over the sump... see below.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

Better: make the trough pipe a 4 or 6" pipe.

One big reason I say this is because flow dynamics of horizontal pipes are horrible.

 

[Brew12]

Sorry poor choice of words on my part...

The 3" will sit over the sump... see below.

Ah, now I understand. So you are basically setting up 2 independent bean animals into an intermediate sump (the 3" pipe) and then creating what is effectively a huge Durso drain from the 3" pipe into the actual sump.

 

[Terence]

This is all giving me a headache. I have two overflows with two gate valves and them both going into a common 2" pipe. The difference in my set up is that I could put a vent below my floor of my house and the drain simply pulls air from there as my water goes 12' down and 70' away. The gurgle is under the floor 10' away from the tank and you rarely hear it.

 

[143MPCo]

Ah, now I understand. So you are basically setting up 2 independent bean animals into an intermediate sump (the 3" pipe) and then creating what is effectively a huge Durso drain from the 3" pipe into the actual sump.

Correct. It's by no means perfect but it helps resolve issues with clearance and height and why it was recommended.

 

[Brew12]

Correct. It's by no means perfect but it helps resolve issues with clearance and height and why it was recommended.

He probably blares his music while drinking his Yoohoo anyway so the extra sound from deviating from a BA won't matter.