RO/DI Question

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So I recently got this unit http://spectrapure.com/Chloramine-Removal-90-GPD-RO-DI-System and so far I love it, my only complaint is that it has a 25% recovery rate (1:3 ratio) and I would really like to imporve this. I did not see anything on their site that would reduce waste, does anyone know if there are water saver accessories that would work? I saw BRS has one but it looks like its only for the BRS units.
 
That is standard waste numbers.

As far as the BRS add-on, it will work with any 75 gpd unit....it doesn't have to be a BRS unit. I know the Rat doesn't like these, but as long as you have relatively clean raw water, I think it's a great way to save water. Note you might need a booster pump as well.
 
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Who is the Rat? My unit is a 90 gpd, that is my concern and my raw water is about ~140-150 tds
 
Rather than trying to cut down on the waste water from my RO/DI unit, I tried to find other uses for it. Since my unit is located next to the washing machine, much of it goes there, this time of year, I use it for watering plants, etc.

Here is a quote from Russ of Buckeye Hydro:

"We feel it is misleading to tell people they can cut down on waste water by adding a second membrane. Here's why.

First - remember that what folks call "waste water" really would be better thought of as "flush water" in that this water serves the important purpose of internally flushing the surface of the semipermeable membrane to keep the membrane from fouling/scaling.

When you configure a system with two membranes in series (the waste from the first membrane going to the "in" port on the second membrane), for this discussion let's say it's two 75 gpd membranes, the system behaves like you have a single long (75 gpd x 2) 150 gpd membrane.

Now - if you use a proper flow restrictor, that is, one for a 150 gpd membrane, you'll have about a 4:1 waste to product ratio. Sounds familiar, right?

If however you don't change the flow restrictor - meaning you keep using the same restrictor you were using when you just had one 75 gpd membrane, then you'll see a waste to product ratio much lower than 4:1. But remember that the recommendation for a ~4:1 ratio comes from the membrane manufacturer. They are telling you that you need about a 4:1 ratio to keep the membrane flushed and keep the membrane from fouling or building up scale. Run the system with a lower ratio and you will foul/scale the membrane(s) quicker than would have otherwise been the case.

Instead of adding a second membrane to lower that ratio, you could have just changed out your flow restrictor ($4) instead. A much less expensive approach to get you to the same endpoint in terms of saving on waste water.

Now, to confuse things just a bit. Filmtec specs call for the 4 to 1 ratio on the basis of assumptions about the water that will be supplied to the membrane. If you have very soft water you MAY be able to get a decent service life from the membrane running at a ratio lower than 4 to 1 (e.g., 3 to 1). Remember that the waste water from the first membrane is about 25% harder than your tap water.

Bottom line: If what you are after is reduced waste water, experiment with a different flow restrictor for $4 instead of messing around with a second membrane plumbed in series.

As a side note, you can also lower the ratio by increasing the pressure delivered to the membrane (with a booster pump), because flow restrictors are sized assuming you are providing factory spec conditions (50 psi and 77 degrees for Filmtec membranes). Increase the pressure and you'll drive more water through the membrane and viola - less waste water. But as I mentioned above, if you do this (just like over-restricting a membrane) - the lower the waste to product ratio, the shorter the lifespan on the membrane."
 
Rather than trying to cut down on the waste water from my RO/DI unit, I tried to find other uses for it. Since my unit is located next to the washing machine, much of it goes there, this time of year, I use it for watering plants, etc.

I agree with Downbeach , We wash around my Ro/Di needs
 
Rather than trying to cut down on the waste water from my RO/DI unit, I tried to find other uses for it. Since my unit is located next to the washing machine, much of it goes there, this time of year, I use it for watering plants, etc.

Here is a quote from Russ of Buckeye Hydro:

"We feel it is misleading to tell people they can cut down on waste water by adding a second membrane. Here's why.

First - remember that what folks call "waste water" really would be better thought of as "flush water" in that this water serves the important purpose of internally flushing the surface of the semipermeable membrane to keep the membrane from fouling/scaling.

When you configure a system with two membranes in series (the waste from the first membrane going to the "in" port on the second membrane), for this discussion let's say it's two 75 gpd membranes, the system behaves like you have a single long (75 gpd x 2) 150 gpd membrane.

Now - if you use a proper flow restrictor, that is, one for a 150 gpd membrane, you'll have about a 4:1 waste to product ratio. Sounds familiar, right?

If however you don't change the flow restrictor - meaning you keep using the same restrictor you were using when you just had one 75 gpd membrane, then you'll see a waste to product ratio much lower than 4:1. But remember that the recommendation for a ~4:1 ratio comes from the membrane manufacturer. They are telling you that you need about a 4:1 ratio to keep the membrane flushed and keep the membrane from fouling or building up scale. Run the system with a lower ratio and you will foul/scale the membrane(s) quicker than would have otherwise been the case.

Instead of adding a second membrane to lower that ratio, you could have just changed out your flow restrictor ($4) instead. A much less expensive approach to get you to the same endpoint in terms of saving on waste water.

Now, to confuse things just a bit. Filmtec specs call for the 4 to 1 ratio on the basis of assumptions about the water that will be supplied to the membrane. If you have very soft water you MAY be able to get a decent service life from the membrane running at a ratio lower than 4 to 1 (e.g., 3 to 1). Remember that the waste water from the first membrane is about 25% harder than your tap water.

Bottom line: If what you are after is reduced waste water, experiment with a different flow restrictor for $4 instead of messing around with a second membrane plumbed in series.

As a side note, you can also lower the ratio by increasing the pressure delivered to the membrane (with a booster pump), because flow restrictors are sized assuming you are providing factory spec conditions (50 psi and 77 degrees for Filmtec membranes). Increase the pressure and you'll drive more water through the membrane and viola - less waste water. But as I mentioned above, if you do this (just like over-restricting a membrane) - the lower the waste to product ratio, the shorter the lifespan on the membrane."
Thanks for the great post, it really cleared somethings up for me! I think I will just leave the unit be and I will just use the waste water in the washing machine and to water plants
 
Dual membranes are not and never should be considered water savers, if someone is telling you that they are uninformed. Membranes must be flushed, there is no getting around that fact if you want your membrane(s) to perform well and last as it should. Reduce the waste and you shorten the life due to scaling, plugging and fouling of the membrane fabric. Remember when you add a second membrane you are taking the concentrated waste from the first membrane and sending it through the second so the TDS is at least 25% higher than the tap water, reduce the waste ratio further and that TDS goes up considerably. Your membrane replacements become more frequent and your cost of operation goes up.

IF and ONLY IF you have soft or softened water and lower than normal tap TDS you can reduce the waste ratio on a single membrane system from the normal 4:1 to 3:1 and in very rare cases 2:1 and still get decent membrane life. Other than that stick with the manufacturers (Dow Filmtec, GE etc. not resellers or vendors) recommended 4:1. I much prefer capillary tube flow restrictors so I myself can check and adjust that waste ratio for optimal performance. Both Buckeye and Spectrapure sell, use and recommend capillary tubes for that reason.
 
So my unit already has a 3:1, is that bad?
 
To answer that you need to know your tap water TDS and your calcium carbonate hardness. If you have softened water and lower than normal TDS then 3:1 is fine. If you have hard water and normal to higher than normal TDS then stick to 4:1 so the membrane stays flushed when in use. Spectrapure provides a hardness test kit with their low waste systems and two capillary tubes so you can check the hardness and use the correct capillary tube and waste ratio for your own, unique water conditions. A hardness test kit can be founs at any hardware store or Sears in the water softener aisle and is a good tool to have.

Its not that I don't like dual membrane systems, I used to own one for several years in fact. What I found though was I could easily get 150+ GPD out of a single 75 GPD RO membrane at a higher rejection rate, 99.4% versus 97.5% by using an Aquatec 8800 booster pump. Membranes love pressure and the higher it is the better they perform. For every 2% you can increase your rejection rate as in 99% versus 97%, you double the life of your DI resin. I'll take higher pressure over two membranes any day.
 
Good to know, I will look into my hardness and I know my current TDS are ~130-150
 
The hardness is much worse on a membrane than the TDS so if it is not soft or you do not own a water softener then keep the waste ratio up. Water softeners do much of the work before the membrane, like pretreatment, so the membrane can cruise along happily. The two absolute best things you can do for a RO/DI is softened water and a booster pump.
 

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