Rock cooking: temps and nitrates

[jmatt]

I have a covered Rubbermaid trough with a lot of Liferock and 30 lbs of Tampa Bay Saltwater sand. In it, a Cor-20 and Sicce pump at either end, and a Helios heater system. The Helios was throwing off warnings about temperature over my upper limit of 80, so I checked with temp with what I have on hand, a meat thermometer and my Hannah Salinity checker which also takes temp readings. And sure enough they were reading the temps at 81-82.

So I turned off the heater and waited a day. Still same readings. The trough is in a basement with an ambient temp of 74-ish, and receives no sunlight. The trough is on a dolly, so air flows all around it. The pumps are fine, I checked. What could cause the temp to be so high? I removed the cover hoping that would help.

Moreover, I did a Hannah HR Nitrate test on Sunday and it was 32. I tossed in more Dr Tims One and Only hoping they would gobble up some nitrates. Two days later it's reading 42. What the heck?

Now, when I added the TBS sand a week ago (before I took my measurements) there were hitchikers: I saw a small brittle star and a snail, not sure if the star was alive and have not seen it since. Could a decaying brittle star cause the readings to be so high?

 

[KrisReef]

Haven't you ever seen a mulch pile steaming? All those rotting starfish and decaying biological activity are heating up the water? Even if not, they are churning out the NO3, and that is what is causing those reading to be so high.

Probably the pumps. Dial the Cor down and see if the temperature follows.
Test for phosphate and do a water change if that is also soaring.

Can't wait to see the rock in the new tank!

 

[jmatt]

Haven't you ever seen a mulch pile steaming? All those rotting starfish and decaying biological activity are heating up the water? Even if not, they are churning out the NO3, and that is what is causing those reading to be so high.

Probably the pumps. Dial the Cor down and see if the temperature follows.
Test for phosphate and do a water change if that is also soaring.

Can't wait to see the rock in the new tank!

Mmm, I can't see a decaying anything heating up the water. Nitrate, sure.

Can the operation of a pump heat the water such that it exceeds 80 degrees? Then it stands to reason that it's heating up water in sumps from sea to shining sea. I dunno.

With the lid off a bit, the temp has dropped to 77.

 

[jmatt]

Did a 20% water change yesterday and it's back down to 32. Not satisfied, I decided I would pull all of the rock from the trough to see if I could find the possibly decaying brittle star. What a mess and no success. (I didn't let the rock dry out, it was out of the water for less than 10 minutes and covered in wet towels)

What the heck do I do? 20% water change every day?

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Did a 20% water change yesterday and it's back down to 32. Not satisfied, I decided I would pull all of the rock from the trough to see if I could find the possibly decaying brittle star. What a mess and no success. (I didn't let the rock dry out, it was out of the water for less than 10 minutes and covered in wet towels)

What the heck do I do? 20% water change every day?

That’s not too high, I ran a successful reef with 40ppm nitrate and .15 po4.
If you want to beef up your filtration consider carbon dosing.

 

[jmatt]

That’s not too high, I ran a successful reef with 40ppm nitrate and .15 po4.
If you want to beef up your filtration consider carbon dosing.

Yeah, that's not crazy high? I'm seeing people (BRS among others) talk about shooting for 1ppm.

I've seen people talk about softies liking the water a "little dirty"... is this in that range?

Do I still want to be feeding the bacteria with Dr Tims ammonium chloride with the nitrates already this high?

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Do I still want to be feeding the bacteria with Dr Tims ammonium chloride with the nitrates already this high?

I would try reducing the levels by dosing something else like vinegar. If the levels drop then continue feeding

 

[mehaffydr]

The pumps are generating the heat taking the lid off is letting that escape.
You say still feeding the DR Tims. Thats your Nitrate. How much of the Dr Tims have you already added?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Moreover, I did a Hannah HR Nitrate test on Sunday and it was 32. I tossed in more Dr Tims One and Only hoping they would gobble up some nitrates. Two days later it's reading 42. What the heck?

Nitrifying bacteria does not reduce nitrates... It helps create them. Water changes will reduce nitrates.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I have a covered Rubbermaid trough with a lot of Liferock and 30 lbs of Tampa Bay Saltwater sand. In it, a Cor-20 and Sicce pump at either end, and a Helios heater system. The Helios was throwing off warnings about temperature over my upper limit of 80, so I checked with temp with what I have on hand, a meat thermometer and my Hannah Salinity checker which also takes temp readings. And sure enough they were reading the temps at 81-82.

So I turned off the heater and waited a day. Still same readings. The trough is in a basement with an ambient temp of 74-ish, and receives no sunlight. The trough is on a dolly, so air flows all around it. The pumps are fine, I checked. What could cause the temp to be so high? I removed the cover hoping that would help.

Moreover, I did a Hannah HR Nitrate test on Sunday and it was 32. I tossed in more Dr Tims One and Only hoping they would gobble up some nitrates. Two days later it's reading 42. What the heck?

Now, when I added the TBS sand a week ago (before I took my measurements) there were hitchikers: I saw a small brittle star and a snail, not sure if the star was alive and have not seen it since. Could a decaying brittle star cause the readings to be so high?

If the rock is not in the actual aquarium yet, there's no real reason to worry about nitrates, etc... For what purpose are you keeping the rock/sand in the trough?

 

[jmatt]

If the rock is not in the actual aquarium yet, there's no real reason to worry about nitrates, etc... For what purpose are you keeping the rock/sand in the trough?

Cooking the rock, as they say. Trying to get them cycled (with the sand) before the tank is ready.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Cooking the rock, as they say. Trying to get them cycled (with the sand) before the tank is ready.

"Cooking" or "curing" live rock is to remove dead material and reduce the ammonia that this dead material produces, by doing multiple water changes until the parameters are within range. The purpose is to prevent that dead material from causing an ammonia spike in an established tank. There is zero reason to add ammonia to a system with live rock... the ammonia source is already there. In fact, the nitrifying bacteria is already there as well, but more *can* be added to boost the population when putting the rock directly into an established tank where an ammonia spike could be detrimental.

"Cycling" rock is actually a different process, although the nitrogen cycle is involved in both "curing" and "cycling" rock.

If your tank is new and has no livestock, why not just put the rock and sand into that tank and "cure" it there? (The main reason I know that people don't immediately put live rock into their tank is to prevent unwanted hitchhikers from getting into the display, but that's not what you said your purpose was for having it in another container...)

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Yeah, that's not crazy high? I'm seeing people (BRS among others) talk about shooting for 1ppm.

Not to repeat what I already said, but if these tests are not being done in your actual display tank, then they are pretty much meaningless at this point.

I interpreted your other reply to mean you don't currently have any livestock in the aquarium this rock and sand are going in to...

I'm assuming that you will be using new SW in your display and then adding this rock and sand... The rock/sand will have the colonies of nitrifying bacteria on/in them, and the water that is currently testing nitrates at 30-40 will be disposed of.

Test your ammonia in the trough. If it's zero, then your rock is cured. Measure ammonia and nitrates in your display tank once you add everything, and once ammonia is zero, add cuc and a fish or two... And away we go!

Nitrates, unless they spike up to the triple digit range, are not going to bother anything besides coral (but can help feed algae). Early on, nitrates can easily be reduced with water changes. Once your tank is stable and you start adding more fish and coral, then test regularly, but remember that coral needs nitrate and phosphate... Trying to keep nitrates at 1 is not going to be healthy for most coral, and will be very difficult to maintain without completely bottoming out your nutrients.

Sorry for the long post...

Good luck!

 

[jmatt]

"Cooking" or "curing" live rock is to remove dead material and reduce the ammonia that this dead material produces, by doing multiple water changes until the parameters are within range. The purpose is to prevent that dead material from causing an ammonia spike in an established tank. There is zero reason to add ammonia to a system with live rock... the ammonia source is already there. In fact, the nitrifying bacteria is already there as well, but more *can* be added to boost the population when putting the rock directly into an established tank where an ammonia spike could be detrimental.

"Cycling" rock is actually a different process, although the nitrogen cycle is involved in both "curing" and "cycling" rock.

If your tank is new and has no livestock, why not just put the rock and sand into that tank and "cure" it there? (The main reason I know that people don't immediately put live rock into their tank is to prevent unwanted hitchhikers from getting into the display, but that's not what you said your purpose was for having it in another container...)

This is all in preparation for the tank setup. I still have to build the stand, hang the lights etc -- so it's not possible for me to do it in the tank just yet. But thanks for the distinction between cooking and cycling, I thought they were used interchangeably.

 

[jmatt]

Not to repeat what I already said, but if these tests are not being done in your actual display tank, then they are pretty much meaningless at this point.

I interpreted your other reply to mean you don't currently have any livestock in the aquarium this rock and sand are going in to...

I'm assuming that you will be using new SW in your display and then adding this rock and sand... The rock/sand will have the colonies of nitrifying bacteria on/in them, and the water that is currently testing nitrates at 30-40 will be disposed of.

Test your ammonia in the trough. If it's zero, then your rock is cured. Measure ammonia and nitrates in your display tank once you add everything, and once ammonia is zero, add cuc and a fish or two... And away we go!

Nitrates, unless they spike up to the triple digit range, are not going to bother anything besides coral (but can help feed algae). Early on, nitrates can easily be reduced with water changes. Once your tank is stable and you start adding more fish and coral, then test regularly, but remember that coral needs nitrate and phosphate... Trying to keep nitrates at 1 is not going to be healthy for most coral, and will be very difficult to maintain without completely bottoming out your nutrients.

Sorry for the long post...

Good luck!

Thanks, I very much appreciate your input. While I know that there's nothing in the trough for the nitrates to harm, I still just want to become proficient at managing the chemistry. And you're right, I should be testing ammonia, not nitrates.

I suppose if this was all happening in an environment with corals, they'd soak up some of the nitrates. What I don't want is nitrates creating an algae issue.

 

[jmatt]

Ammonia is testing near or at zero with Red Sea. Hannah Nitrate HR still shows at 30 with 2 x 10% water changes.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

Rubbermaid Containers are pretty good insulators. We had one outside for our Cat, when it wouldn’t come in, with some Straw inside. The Cat didn’t like a lot of straw, two entrance. Was plenty warm inside.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thanks, I very much appreciate your input. While I know that there's nothing in the trough for the nitrates to harm, I still just want to become proficient at managing the chemistry. And you're right, I should be testing ammonia, not nitrates.

I suppose if this was all happening in an environment with corals, they'd soak up some of the nitrates. What I don't want is nitrates creating an algae issue.

No light = no algae...