RODI with hi po4 readings
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Something in the container your using?
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Damon
Well-Known Member
Could be a mix of things:
1. DI not pulling everything(all di isn't equal) and you may need to run dual di or different brand resin
2. Tds meter calibration may be off(but I tend to think it's the first).
3. The resolution of the meter is not picking up the deviance.
I had to switch resin a few times over the years to get the results I wanted. Even now, I don't truly trust tds readings because of issues I have encountered with different meters. I have received the same situation as you with those readings. I go with the most out, which in your case is the phosphate reading. That's just my opinion.
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1. DI not pulling everything(all di isn't equal) and you may need to run dual di or different brand resin
2. Tds meter calibration may be off(but I tend to think it's the first).
3. The resolution of the meter is not picking up the deviance.
I had to switch resin a few times over the years to get the results I wanted. Even now, I don't truly trust tds readings because of issues I have encountered with different meters. I have received the same situation as you with those readings. I go with the most out, which in your case is the phosphate reading. That's just my opinion.
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You cannot accurately measure phosphates in ultrapure waters, the readings are bogus. Restivity/conductivity or TDS are you best options. You are asking hobbyist grade test kits or pocket meters to test at levels even $100k+ lab grade benchtop instruments have trouble with. There are literally hundreds of threads on all the reef forums discussing the Hanna Checkers and their problems with reagents as well as having the wrong meter for the job.
Phosphate (PO4) and your RODI system - Reef Central Online Community
Phosphate (PO4) and your RODI system - Reef Central Online Community
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beaslbob
2500 Club Member
IMHO that level of phosphates in replacement water is nothing to worry about.
phosphates from the bioload are much higher and must be reduced through the system not water changes.
my .02
phosphates from the bioload are much higher and must be reduced through the system not water changes.
my .02
Damon
Well-Known Member
There is a huge misconception in the aquarium industry in regards to tds that cracks me up. This must be a reason I don't run into these issues.
I will explain: 20 years of aquaria and almost the same amount of time with hydroponics. Most of the elemental issues we face in aquaria are the same that make plants in water thrive. I will just advise strongly that tds is no means to judge what is and is not in water, and I've had someone tell me mumbo jumbo about "it's pure until you put an electrode in it", but if it was truly zero as far as nothing in it, a plant wouldn't grow. And I've grown plants in di water: there has to be something to feed it or it would die!
When you think about it, that should make a light bulb go off. But this industry is so resistive to "what we think we know" that is inaccurate when you look at other hobbies and industries. A lot of data most go off is a good ten years behind. A great example is bacterial and pribiotic information.
My advice for you is advised: don't trust zero tds water to eliminate everything. If you think I am lying, throw enough light and a cutting in there and watch it grow. That is another thing seriously lacking :knowledge of how to really pull nutrients with plants and light manipulation to do so..
Do what you want, but if you go off tds and still have a problem or detect with a hobby kit, or you can send a sample to a lab, the result will be the same: you need an Elemental Analysis of the sample and not just an electrical charge test..
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I will explain: 20 years of aquaria and almost the same amount of time with hydroponics. Most of the elemental issues we face in aquaria are the same that make plants in water thrive. I will just advise strongly that tds is no means to judge what is and is not in water, and I've had someone tell me mumbo jumbo about "it's pure until you put an electrode in it", but if it was truly zero as far as nothing in it, a plant wouldn't grow. And I've grown plants in di water: there has to be something to feed it or it would die!
When you think about it, that should make a light bulb go off. But this industry is so resistive to "what we think we know" that is inaccurate when you look at other hobbies and industries. A lot of data most go off is a good ten years behind. A great example is bacterial and pribiotic information.
My advice for you is advised: don't trust zero tds water to eliminate everything. If you think I am lying, throw enough light and a cutting in there and watch it grow. That is another thing seriously lacking :knowledge of how to really pull nutrients with plants and light manipulation to do so..
Do what you want, but if you go off tds and still have a problem or detect with a hobby kit, or you can send a sample to a lab, the result will be the same: you need an Elemental Analysis of the sample and not just an electrical charge test..
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True 0 TDS water, 18.2 megaohms resistivity, is pure water and contains nothing but hydrogen and oxygen. The moisture alone will grow plants, at least for awhile.
The accuracy of many TDS meters though is a concern, meters that are not ATC or temperature compensated especially. Others have an accuracy of +/- 3% of full scale which can be significant. Like anything else, the better the meter and the more diligent you are in keeping that meter clan and calibrated, the more accurate and repeatable your results will be.
TDS or conductivity are the best measuremens we have at the hobbyist level and are very very accurate depending on your meter and your methodology. I went so far as to borrow benchtop Thornton conductivity/resistivity meter from a lab to double check my COM-100 meter and was extremely pleased with what I found. TDS really is a good indicator, the only problem is it does not tell you what specifically is present if you do detect TDS. The best plan is a good RO/DI with good quality resin and residence time so it can do its job.
The accuracy of many TDS meters though is a concern, meters that are not ATC or temperature compensated especially. Others have an accuracy of +/- 3% of full scale which can be significant. Like anything else, the better the meter and the more diligent you are in keeping that meter clan and calibrated, the more accurate and repeatable your results will be.
TDS or conductivity are the best measuremens we have at the hobbyist level and are very very accurate depending on your meter and your methodology. I went so far as to borrow benchtop Thornton conductivity/resistivity meter from a lab to double check my COM-100 meter and was extremely pleased with what I found. TDS really is a good indicator, the only problem is it does not tell you what specifically is present if you do detect TDS. The best plan is a good RO/DI with good quality resin and residence time so it can do its job.
Damon
Well-Known Member
Your a bit incorrect as far as plants are concerned. There has to be elements in the solution for them to grow. Moisture alone will not do it. That is just a fact, especially when there is either an inert or no media present. You may want to not try this discussion with me about plants tbh. I have a good understanding of aquaria, but my knowledge and experience of plants and liquid based horticulture(hydroculture) is insane!
It honestly didn't matter which meter you borrowed because there is a reason conductivity (EC) is the preferred method over tds(for everything except aquaria). And even with ec there is a limit just based off atomic structure and their ability to conduct or transfer components.
You can have no conductivity and still will have elemental components in a solution, otherwise there would be no solution at all. That's just basic chemistry and putting it all together, while not getting caught up in "aquarium stuff".
Hanna did a good thing by creating tests that are specific for fresh and saltwater. If you test both non salt and then salt, your able to come to a more accurate end than just basing it off tds. Tds is total, we're looking for specific in this particular instance.
Lol, your Mr Spectra Pure, so you should know what each filter element or resin does, and therefore, it's affect on tds. But your missing the inherent overall picture of what we're ultimately trying to do. Tds is only going to tell you the total (approximate) of everything, it doesn't give you the breakdown, even when reading zero. Tds is just saying 100,but it's not giving the equation that makes up the total or even if it's actually a true 100. Tds is after all a sine wave based measurement scale.
Tds picks up chlorine, metals, anything, but for aquarium/reef, we need more specific. Who is to say that, and this is the point, that after all of the filters, membranes and di, that there isn't 0.04 of deviance, let's even go 0.03 tds. What are the elements making up that? Obviously, in a perfect world it would be all that the previous did not pick up. That could be completely phosphorous, silicate, etc that your tds is not going to detect. It's just the inherent weakness of testing for total or overall.
The more specific and accurate is to have zero tds, yes, but it doesn't stop there. We test the tank for raw elements, why not your makeup water(before adding salt)? After all, that is the foundation of everything: the beginning. Bad in, bad out! And you don't need lab grade equipment to test raw water, though you can send samples for analysis(not to cost effective). There are tons of freshwater test kits for testing the same elements we do in salt. But relying on tds is like chasing a needle in a haystack if your having an issue. But it's always the first and end all thing suggested, and if you have zero tds water, your water is perfect: Completely untrue.. But then, that would show and anger some of the filtration companies because it would expose what their product indeed does "not" do.
The is a lot more to testing water than just testing tds. This may seem a bit anal, but honestly, this is an anal hobby, looking to always do better with water quality. You can never do better looking only on the surface and not digging deeper. Tds is the surface, the cover. Elements(specific) testing that we are targeting go well beyond the basic idea of testing for overall content.
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It honestly didn't matter which meter you borrowed because there is a reason conductivity (EC) is the preferred method over tds(for everything except aquaria). And even with ec there is a limit just based off atomic structure and their ability to conduct or transfer components.
You can have no conductivity and still will have elemental components in a solution, otherwise there would be no solution at all. That's just basic chemistry and putting it all together, while not getting caught up in "aquarium stuff".
Hanna did a good thing by creating tests that are specific for fresh and saltwater. If you test both non salt and then salt, your able to come to a more accurate end than just basing it off tds. Tds is total, we're looking for specific in this particular instance.
Lol, your Mr Spectra Pure, so you should know what each filter element or resin does, and therefore, it's affect on tds. But your missing the inherent overall picture of what we're ultimately trying to do. Tds is only going to tell you the total (approximate) of everything, it doesn't give you the breakdown, even when reading zero. Tds is just saying 100,but it's not giving the equation that makes up the total or even if it's actually a true 100. Tds is after all a sine wave based measurement scale.
Tds picks up chlorine, metals, anything, but for aquarium/reef, we need more specific. Who is to say that, and this is the point, that after all of the filters, membranes and di, that there isn't 0.04 of deviance, let's even go 0.03 tds. What are the elements making up that? Obviously, in a perfect world it would be all that the previous did not pick up. That could be completely phosphorous, silicate, etc that your tds is not going to detect. It's just the inherent weakness of testing for total or overall.
The more specific and accurate is to have zero tds, yes, but it doesn't stop there. We test the tank for raw elements, why not your makeup water(before adding salt)? After all, that is the foundation of everything: the beginning. Bad in, bad out! And you don't need lab grade equipment to test raw water, though you can send samples for analysis(not to cost effective). There are tons of freshwater test kits for testing the same elements we do in salt. But relying on tds is like chasing a needle in a haystack if your having an issue. But it's always the first and end all thing suggested, and if you have zero tds water, your water is perfect: Completely untrue.. But then, that would show and anger some of the filtration companies because it would expose what their product indeed does "not" do.
The is a lot more to testing water than just testing tds. This may seem a bit anal, but honestly, this is an anal hobby, looking to always do better with water quality. You can never do better looking only on the surface and not digging deeper. Tds is the surface, the cover. Elements(specific) testing that we are targeting go well beyond the basic idea of testing for overall content.
Sent from Note 2 on Tap Pro
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TDS measurement does use electrical conductivity as its base, then does a calculation so it is easily understood rather than expressed in microseimens or megaohms. A good meter will get you to the same place either way and the COM-100 is as good a hobbyist grade meter as you will find.
Using a good low range TDS meter will tell you the same as 18.2 megaohms resistivity or 0.05 microseimens on a resistivity or conductivity meter, the readings on all are only as good as your meter and your method.
What is ZERO TDS? Is it real?? - Reef Central Online Community
TDS Meters
FAQ
TDS measurement is sufficient for reefkeeping as long as you use a good meter, not the inlines, and keep it clean and calibrated.
Using a good low range TDS meter will tell you the same as 18.2 megaohms resistivity or 0.05 microseimens on a resistivity or conductivity meter, the readings on all are only as good as your meter and your method.
What is ZERO TDS? Is it real?? - Reef Central Online Community
TDS Meters
FAQ
TDS measurement is sufficient for reefkeeping as long as you use a good meter, not the inlines, and keep it clean and calibrated.
Damon
Well-Known Member
As I said, look past aquaria and you will learn something new, but that's on you. Posting links to information that is already known(I already know) gets nowhere to progress.
If someone wants to be more accurate, use a standard EC and not tds meter. Even then, you still can and should test processed water for phosphate as that is usually the element that causes the most problems in aquaria. Hobbyist or enthusiast.
For those inclined and there is much, much more if one just wants to search:
http://www.hydroponics.net/learn/debate_over_ec_and_tds.asp
http://www.stevenswater.com/water_quality_sensors/conductivity_info.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0011916489800128
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/electrical-conductivity
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If someone wants to be more accurate, use a standard EC and not tds meter. Even then, you still can and should test processed water for phosphate as that is usually the element that causes the most problems in aquaria. Hobbyist or enthusiast.
For those inclined and there is much, much more if one just wants to search:
http://www.hydroponics.net/learn/debate_over_ec_and_tds.asp
http://www.stevenswater.com/water_quality_sensors/conductivity_info.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0011916489800128
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/electrical-conductivity
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beaslbob
2500 Club Member
Gee interesting.
:squigglemouth:
Even Ro/di 0 tds water grows plants
and what the plants need to grow are the aquarium waste products we wanted the ro/di to get rid of to begin with. :doh:
Hmmmmmm
Just use a refugium with $5 of macro algaes and do both things and forget about the quality of the initial water. :xd:
Of course not doing water changes would help also. So the tanks conditions reflect the tank processes not the ro/di processes. :lol:
my .02
:squigglemouth:
Even Ro/di 0 tds water grows plants
and what the plants need to grow are the aquarium waste products we wanted the ro/di to get rid of to begin with. :doh:
Hmmmmmm
Just use a refugium with $5 of macro algaes and do both things and forget about the quality of the initial water. :xd:
Of course not doing water changes would help also. So the tanks conditions reflect the tank processes not the ro/di processes. :lol:
my .02
Damon
Well-Known Member
It's a really goofy circle.. Trying to get clean water, but then it depends on your methods. Some simply don't believe in fuges and only do sumps.
And the only problem with that is that a lot of times, the pulling off plants in the fuge isn't adequate. IMHO, it is based off lack of light, but everyone isn't willing or able to throw tons of wattage or power lighting (I have used 250 and 3 watt horticulture PC and now a led fixture) on their fuge for whatever reason. Then, you run into using other means(gfo and others) and doubling up methods aren't bad either.
No one method of delivery is end all by any means. But, the natural way you are mentioning is my preferred methodology. Lol, but the less I rely on plants, the better, for example when I pull some algea and the macro is regenerating and recovering from the stress of pruning.
And yes, the zero tds grows plants because it still has nutrient(n, p, k) in it that the overall tds isn't picking up. Just because zero tds, doesn't mean most of the time that nothing is in that water as far as trace amounts of elements. This same that feeds one plant, will feed another.
Honestly, it's a very cool experiment: just put a cutting off something in a jar with ro/di water. Then put an air stone in it and bubble it. The root structure that results is going to be very fine and fuzzy because your bombarding the root with oxygen. Thus the plant becomes a lot more able to draw nutrients and at much higher rates. The catch to this is always light available. You have to have enough light for the plant to synthesize the nutrient available to it. But the resulting plant usually is much stronger, productive and grows much faster. The is more involved, but that's a simplistic cause and effect.
The same theory can be applied to refugiums. But the plants such as cheato that live completely underwater are taking Co2 from the water column instead of out of the air. That's the real reason behind reverse photoperiod in a fuge. It keeps the pH up at night due to photosynthesis and the respiration of plant matter. To take it a step further, this oxygen rich environment is highly preferred for and to pods and other animals. So your doing a ton of things just with light manipulation.
It's a fun subject..
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kacrocorals581
Gotta have that acro
Dual di
Damon
Well-Known Member
Very well could be. You would be suprised and shocked.. Lol, I'm my many a tests, I have done salts. What I have and use now indeed does have 0.02, but I live with it because of its positive effects.
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