Ron Reefman's Rock Flower experience

[Humble_Reefer]

Hi everyone. Thanks so much for all the helpful info. Im still making my way through the thread, but have a question that hopefully hasnt been asked/answered yet.

Do yhe various sub species of RFAs interbreed at all? I am looking to breed them, but the best source of affordable and brightly coloured nems in my area claims that his are from the Indian Ocean. It seems like most RFAs in Canada/USA are from the Carribean.

Does anyone have any experience with keeping and/or breeding the Indian Ocean variety?

 

[Ron Reefman]

Hi everyone. Thanks so much for all the helpful info. Im still making my way through the thread, but have a question that hopefully hasn't been asked/answered yet.

Do the various sub species of RFAs interbreed at all? I am looking to breed them, but the best source of affordable and brightly coloured nems in my area claims that his are from the Indian Ocean. It seems like most RFAs in Canada/USA are from the Carribbean.

Does anyone have any experience with keeping and/or breeding the Indian Ocean variety?

Hi, and welcome to the discussion. We may be kicking this one around for awhile.

That's an interesting question. Not so much for whether the various RFA can breed with each other (although that is a good question), but that somebody claims to have RFA from the Indian Ocean. I've been involved with RFA for the better part of 10 years now. That's when I first collected a couple of them when I was snorkeling in the shallows off an island in the Florida Keys. In all that time, I've never heard anybody claim that there are RFA in the Indian Ocean, let alone that they have some.

So I can't help with the question of whether or not Caribbean RFA can breed with RFA from the Indian Ocean. The local RFA that seem to fall into 2 categories, colorful ones that come from deeper water (25 to 50 feet) and the far less colorful ones that have interesting patterns and stripes that come from shallow water (1 to 20 feet) can breed with each other. I'm almost positive they are the same species, just different color morphs.

I'd love to see some photos of RFA that this person claims are from the Indian Ocean. I'd even be willing to buy a few and add them to my collection (assuming they are RFA). And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this person is wrong, I'm just saying that I've never heard anyone claim to have RFA from there.

 

[ApoIsland]

Hi, and welcome to the discussion. We may be kicking this one around for awhile.

That's an interesting question. Not so much for whether the various RFA can breed with each other (although that is a good question), but that somebody claims to have RFA from the Indian Ocean. I've been involved with RFA for the better part of 10 years now. That's when I first collected a couple of them when I was snorkeling in the shallows off an island in the Florida Keys. In all that time, I've never heard anybody claim that there are RFA in the Indian Ocean, let alone that they have some.

So I can't help with the question of whether or not Caribbean RFA can breed with RFA from the Indian Ocean. The local RFA that seem to fall into 2 categories, colorful ones that come from deeper water (25 to 50 feet) and the far less colorful ones that have interesting patterns and stripes that come from shallow water (1 to 20 feet) can breed with each other. I'm almost positive they are the same species, just different color morphs.

I'd love to see some photos of RFA that this person claims are from the Indian Ocean. I'd even be willing to buy a few and add them to my collection (assuming they are RFA). And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this person is wrong, I'm just saying that I've never heard anyone claim to have RFA from there.

RFA were found in Indonesia years ago so I think it's fairly likely they came from there as I believe the Indian Ocean does border one side of the country.

I would also imagine you can cross breed them. No real rationale for that statment. Who will be the first here to try?

 

[Humble_Reefer]

Hi, and welcome to the discussion. We may be kicking this one around for awhile.

That's an interesting question. Not so much for whether the various RFA can breed with each other (although that is a good question), but that somebody claims to have RFA from the Indian Ocean. I've been involved with RFA for the better part of 10 years now. That's when I first collected a couple of them when I was snorkeling in the shallows off an island in the Florida Keys. In all that time, I've never heard anybody claim that there are RFA in the Indian Ocean, let alone that they have some.

So I can't help with the question of whether or not Caribbean RFA can breed with RFA from the Indian Ocean. The local RFA that seem to fall into 2 categories, colorful ones that come from deeper water (25 to 50 feet) and the far less colorful ones that have interesting patterns and stripes that come from shallow water (1 to 20 feet) can breed with each other. I'm almost positive they are the same species, just different color morphs.

I'd love to see some photos of RFA that this person claims are from the Indian Ocean. I'd even be willing to buy a few and add them to my collection (assuming they are RFA). And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this person is wrong, I'm just saying that I've never heard anyone claim to have RFA from there.

Here are the Indian Rock Flowers for sale:

Indian Ocean Rockflower Anemones – Reef 4 Sale

www.reef4sale.com

I actually didn't understand that they were different than the regular variety until I saw them in person. Their tentacles were much darker, smoother, and thinner than those I typically see in stores. They looked almost like palythoa. However, he showed me the nems under a light he brought out to his cold open air garage (covid precaution), and told me they were shrunken due to the cold. I opted to wait until I am able to go inside and see them happy in a tank before I buy them.

Since I'm hoping to start a breeding colony, I was also hesitant to get a subspecies that was incompatible with those more widely available.

P.s., just taking a look at your collecting/snorkelling thread, and see you've been to Laughingbird. I lived in Belize for a while when I was kid, and our trips to Laughingbird definitely sparked my passion for this hobby. I would love to go back. It is great to hear it's still relatively healthy.

 

[Cell]

I feel silly for thinking at one time I only had 6 babies. I'm now up to 30. I can really see how this could turn into a problem if left unattended considering I only started with 8 and now have about 40. Ive found RFA's very difficult to remove once they get bigger. The past week I started looking further and further away from the mother and continued to find well traveled babies spread throughout the tank. Mostly in back where I didnt really look before. Here is a super blue pic that shows some nice fluorescence.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Here are the Indian Rock Flowers for sale:

Indian Ocean Rockflower Anemones – Reef 4 Sale

www.reef4sale.com

I actually didn't understand that they were different than the regular variety until I saw them in person. Their tentacles were much darker, smoother, and thinner than those I typically see in stores. They looked almost like palythoa. However, he showed me the nems under a light he brought out to his cold open air garage (covid precaution), and told me they were shrunken due to the cold. I opted to wait until I am able to go inside and see them happy in a tank before I buy them.

Since I'm hoping to start a breeding colony, I was also hesitant to get a subspecies that was incompatible with those more widely available.

P.s., just taking a look at your collecting/snorkelling thread, and see you've been to Laughingbird. I lived in Belize for a while when I was kid, and our trips to Laughingbird definitely sparked my passion for this hobby. I would love to go back. It is great to hear it's still relatively healthy.

I'm interested in buying a few of these for my tank... just to see what happens. I wonder if these nems will even get along with Caribbean RFAs. As in, will they tolerate getting up close and personal? I know my RFAs and maxi-minis like to keep a bit of separation between each other. But they are happy to be up tight with members of their own species.

Glad you noticed the Laughingbird Key photo. We really enjoyed that snorkel. It was like snorkeling on the big reef in the Keys, only a lot more nice coral and a LOT LESS people!

I feel silly for thinking at one time I only had 6 babies. I'm now up to 30. I can really see how this could turn into a problem if left unattended considering I only started with 8 and now have about 40. Ive found RFA's very difficult to remove once they get bigger. The past week I started looking further and further away from the mother and continued to find well traveled babies spread throughout the tank. Mostly in back where I didnt really look before. Here is a super blue pic that shows some nice fluorescence.

Don't feel silly. In fact, I'm tickled that you have continued to post new finds. And every photo gets cooler and cooler looking! Good for you!

One of the things I'm still interested it trying to learn is; just how many babies an average RFA delivers? I've had a couple with just a few and a few with 10 to 20. But I've heard from others here that they have had as many as 40 babies (maybe all one female, maybe multiple females)?

Given you have some there (maybe 5 to 9) that are bigger than the rest, I wonder if maybe you had some born a few months ago that just went unnoticed? If not, do you have any ideas as to why they are different sizes?

BTW, what is that you have them in? And what is the substrate? I looks bigger than sand. And are you keeping these out on their own, or in a small tank, or in your DT?

 

[eggplantparrot]

really hoping I can get some spawns.

finding good ones in Canada before they're sold is already hard enough not to mention the price hike/Canada tax

 

[Cell]

I closely observe my tank pretty frequently so I'd like to believe there haven't been babies scattered throughout for months, but it's possible. I initially attributed the different sizes to a slow birthing process over several days, but learned otherwise in this thread so I'm really not sure. I suppose growth rate between individuals may differ, some may just grow faster pre and post birth.

They are in a 2" PVC end cap on a frag rack a couple cm below the surface in my DT. Substrate is Caribsea Special Grade.

 

[Ron Reefman]

really hoping I can get some spawns.

finding good ones in Canada before they're sold is already hard enough not to mention the price hike/Canada tax

You have some big ones there so I suspect you may have some breeding in your future. I don't feed mine silver sides chunks very often, but I've had 2 spawns of 3 over the last year, happen within 7 to 10 days after I fed them. That's probably just coincidence, but who knows. I'm pretty sure they are more likely to spawn when happy or when stressed.

Good luck and keep us in the loop. Glad to have you here.

I closely observe my tank pretty frequently so I'd like to believe there haven't been babies scattered throughout for months, but it's possible. I initially attributed the different sizes to a slow birthing process over several days, but learned otherwise in this thread so I'm really not sure. I suppose growth rate between individuals may differ, some may just grow faster pre and post birth.

They are in a 2" PVC end cap on a frag rack a couple cm below the surface in my DT. Substrate is Caribsea Special Grade.

Never having seen the actual birthing, I have no idea if they are born already different sizes. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were.

I've got RFAs in end caps that filled with sand after the RFA was well attached. But I've never tried putting one in a new end cap with a bit of substrate already in the bottom. I'll give that a try. I have some artificially made black sand that is more coarse than the sugar fine sand in my DT. And the nems do look good against a black background! But your end cap photos are inspiring! I'd love to get 30+ new babies.

 

[Humble_Reefer]

finding good ones in Canada before they're sold is already hard enough not to mention the price hike/Canada tax

Tell me about it. It seems even more seasonal here than in the states. Usually see a bunch in the spring. I'm just trying to start a collection now. Where abouts in the GTA are you? Do you sell/trade?

 

[Cell]

Never having seen the actual birthing, I have no idea if they are born already different sizes. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were.

I've got RFAs in end caps that filled with sand after the RFA was well attached. But I've never tried putting one in a new end cap with a bit of substrate already in the bottom. I'll give that a try. I have some artificially made black sand that is more coarse than the sugar fine sand in my DT. And the nems do look good against a black background! But your end cap photos are inspiring! I'd love to get 30+ new babies.

Some are attached directly to the bottom of the end cap, which is my preference, but some just grabbed pieces of substrate. I do try to clear a bare space for attachment when adding new ones but it doesnt always work. What's interesting is they seem to like either hugging the wall or each other. I've tried to spread them out evenly but they are congregating over time. There is very little sand right now, just barely covering the bottom so they may feel just too exposed in the middle of the cup too.

 

[eggplantparrot]

Tell me about it. It seems even more seasonal here than in the states. Usually see a bunch in the spring. I'm just trying to start a collection now. Where abouts in the GTA are you? Do you sell/trade?

im in scarborough.

i have a kijiji ad for some corals but most have been sold already.

I'm just looking to get high end RFAs now.

the super yellow/gold one on the left was a lucky find at BigAls Scarborough for 90$, as was the Dragon Egg for 45$ 2 years ago

 

[Ron Reefman]

Some are attached directly to the bottom of the end cap, which is my preference, but some just grabbed pieces of substrate. I do try to clear a bare space for attachment when adding new ones but it doesnt always work. What's interesting is they seem to like either hugging the wall or each other. I've tried to spread them out evenly but they are congregating over time. There is very little sand right now, just barely covering the bottom so they may feel just too exposed in the middle of the cup too.

Both in my older tanks and before I started using end caps, I found RFAs really like being at the edge of a rock. Usually with the foot attached to the rock below the surface of the sand. Either that or in a hole. I'm not at all surprised that your little guys are trending toward the edge of the end cap. And I'll bet the little ones that are attached to substrate now, will soon find their way to reach the bottom of the end cap. I had a baby in my breeding tank that was a bit smaller than a dime and extended down 2 1/2 inches through the black sand to reach the bottom of the tank.

 

[eggplantparrot]

2 nems stretching, is there something happening?

 

[Ron Reefman]

Odds are those are males and some time today they may spawn. If they do, you can see the spawn coming out of the nem's mouth or, if you miss it, the tank will get a little cloudy. It has been my experience that this usually happens in the early evening.

The other option, and I'm far less experienced here, it could be females getting ready to release babies.

Or it could be that they just woke up and are simply doing their morning stretch. Just kidding. But it is possible that it could be something else in the realm of RFA behavior that I'm not aware of.

Keep us posted.

 

[eggplantparrot]

no cloudy tank so im guessing no spawn.

I am feeding almost every day so hopefully babies will be on the way.

 

[Humble_Reefer]

no cloudy tank so im guessing no spawn.

I am feeding almost every day so hopefully babies will be on the way.

Ugly Duckling Anemones in a New Light - CORAL Magazine

An accidental rock anemone reproduction event some years ago, when about 20 small ones showed up in a tray with an adult, convinced me that there was a possible opportunity for captive culture. There were two unknowns: could we predictably reproduce Epicystis crucifer, and, more important, would...

www.reef2rainforest.com

The RFA breeder in this article feeds every day it seems. I wonder if frequent light feeding with occasional large meals (i.e., silversides) may help elicit spawnings.

 

[eggplantparrot]

Ugly Duckling Anemones in a New Light - CORAL Magazine

An accidental rock anemone reproduction event some years ago, when about 20 small ones showed up in a tray with an adult, convinced me that there was a possible opportunity for captive culture. There were two unknowns: could we predictably reproduce Epicystis crucifer, and, more important, would...

www.reef2rainforest.com

The RFA breeder in this article feeds every day it seems. I wonder if frequent light feeding with occasional large meals (i.e., silversides) may help elicit spawnings.

interesting read.

I was feeding every day but it's a small tank and the super gold stopped taking in food so I slowed down a bit. may try feeding more again.

 

[Humble_Reefer]

I've bit the bullet and just bought these two RFA packs (see below), which the seller said ranged from 1.5-2.5". They are pretty, but unfortunately not too many "ultras", as far as I understand it. I really like the idea of trying to selectively breed them, and have a few questions about trait heritability that hopefully Ron or someone could offer their observations on:

1) I've read that parents can produce colours in thier offspring that they don't exhibit themselves. Can I expect to get any offspring with yellow faces, pink tentacles, etc., the kind of colour variation that really take a specimen over the top.

2) Has anyone tried to track parents/offspring to see how Mendellian the inheritance of traits might be? For example will two red face green tentacled parents produce a somewhat predictable ratio of color combinations in their offspring?

 

[Ron Reefman]

Ugly Duckling Anemones in a New Light - CORAL Magazine

An accidental rock anemone reproduction event some years ago, when about 20 small ones showed up in a tray with an adult, convinced me that there was a possible opportunity for captive culture. There were two unknowns: could we predictably reproduce Epicystis crucifer, and, more important, would...

www.reef2rainforest.com

The RFA breeder in this article feeds every day it seems. I wonder if frequent light feeding with occasional large meals (i.e., silversides) may help elicit spawnings.

This article is from 2012. So you can see that even as recently as 8 years ago, very little was understood about how this species reproduced. At that point, the author thought that RFA were breeding by cloning through a process called Pedal Laceration. He was wrong and only figured that out in 2012. So don't take his feeding advise as gospel either. Although I agree that well fed, happy RFA are more likely to breed.

I've bit the bullet and just bought these two RFA packs (see below), which the seller said ranged from 1.5-2.5". They are pretty, but unfortunately not too many "ultras", as far as I understand it. I really like the idea of trying to selectively breed them, and have a few questions about trait heritability that hopefully Ron or someone could offer their observations on:

1) I've read that parents can produce colours in thier offspring that they don't exhibit themselves. Can I expect to get any offspring with yellow faces, pink tentacles, etc., the kind of colour variation that really take a specimen over the top.

2) Has anyone tried to track parents/offspring to see how Mendelian the inheritance of traits might be? For example will two red face green tentacled parents produce a somewhat predictable ratio of color combinations in their offspring?

Question #1: I have only anecdotal evidence about the inherited traits the offspring may develop. Unlike the cloning style of reproduction (like in Bubble Tip Anemones) where the offspring looks exactly like the single parent. I suspect that much like all other reproduction by sperm and egg joining, the traits will be much more likely to look like, or very similar to the parents. However, on occasion recessive traits may reveal themselves in some offspring. But I expect that dramatically different looking offspring will be quite uncommon.

That's why I've been trying to find RFA that are different than the typical ones we see for sale in the trade. And just being different doesn't always mean better looking or more colorful. It means uncommon. Sometimes that can mean a RFA that is worth a lot more as in being very Ultra or worth very little because it's different but not pretty to look at.

Question #2: I guess the answer to the first question, covers some of the 2nd question. I have serious doubts that there is any serious study that has been done to see exactly how closely the RFA babies track their parents looks. In fact, there is very little information about RFA genetics, reproduction, photosynthetic ability, feeding requirements, habitat or much else beyond dissecting them and learning about what is inside.

Extra credit: ;Hilarious It's only my anecdotal experience that my babies have looked a lot like the parents. My early breeding events were done when I only had a handful of RFAs in the tank. And most of the babies were either a rainbow coloration, like one of the parents, or with an orange oral disk and bright green tentacles like the other parent. However, there were a couple that were some combination of the two. Unfortunately, none of them exhibited any features or colors that were very different than what the parents exhibited.