Royal Gramma bacterial infection?

ChrisRD · Mar 26, 2019

I have a Royal Gramma in a 65 gallon tank that I setup for my kids (no corals, just rock, no sand) that I think sustained some type of injury that has progressed into a bacterial infection...

Three other fish in the tank...a Sixline, Cherub Angel and a Clarikii. Sounds like a tough crowd but there is not much aggression despite the Clarkii being...well...a Clarkii. All are eating well, including the Gramma (frozen mysis, NLS pellets, spirulina flake, spirulina enriched brine, etc.)...typically two feedings a day. No new fish added in the two years since these guys went into this tank (after a QT with CP and Prazi). No other signs of disease or problems with this or any of the other fish before now.

Water conditions in this tank are good with the exception of nitrates ~50ppm (think kids feeding the tank and Dad neglecting to do enough water changes...with no sandbed or algae filtration for denitrification). SG=1.025, Temp=77, Alk 8ish, established tank so no detectable ammonia or nitrite, pH runs about 8.2-8.4. I'm sure phosphate is elevated but Emerald crabs and the snails seem to be keeping algae growth in check...rockwork looks pretty clean, good coralline coverage on rocks and back glass, water is clear...plenty of flow (Tunze powerheads). The skimmer and mech filter get cleaned 2X a week, regular GAC use, rockwork gets the turkey baster treatment every couple of weeks, etc.

This started out with some marks (see circled areas) that looked like an injury (a few weeks ago)...probably from the Clarkii or one of the Coral Banded Shrimp (mated pair in tank). Typical for a Gramma...he does hang out in some tight holes/crevices...so I suppose it could have been scrapes...but I've never seen anything like this develop in any Gramma I've had in the past (been keeping saltwater fish on/off since 1991). There is no change in behavior or appetite...no spots, no scratching, no heavy breathing, etc.

Other fish all look very good...no issues at all. I know the pic isn't great...it was a bit hurried and the glass wasn't totally clean...white specks are on the glass...not on the fish. The opposite side of the fish looks much better...some faint whitish areas but nothing like the side shown in the pic.

Sorry for the length...was hoping to get some opinions as to whether this is likely bacterial and what might be the best treatment option. I was planning to try the nutritional route and some heavy water changes first before resorting to ripping apart the tank to get him out. I think that will be the only way I'm getting him into a hospital tank as he would likely be the last of the group to take a baited hook or enter a trap.

Thanks!

Frtdrmrose7 · Mar 26, 2019

If nothing new has been added in two years I would say it’s not likely a parasite and is a bacterial infection.
If you can get some NFG (Nitrofuracin green) that would be the best treated for 14 days.
If you can’t get that the Trifecta would be best
Metro, Kanaplex, Furan 2 treated for 14 days
I hate to tell you this but he needs to be. In a QT for treatment.

ngoodermuth · Mar 26, 2019

I would work on trying to catch him, like mentioned above antibiotics in QT are the best option by far.

BUT, in the meantime (and better than nothing at all) you could try binding kanaplex to frozen food with focus, and feeding him that to slow it down until you catch him.

If you call your local seafood places, try to track down some fish roe. Perfect trap bait, most fish find it irresistible.

ChrisRD · Mar 27, 2019

Thanks for the helpful responses. I will try the medicated food for now and attempt to trap him with the fish roe. Worst case I will set aside some time this coming weekend to pull things apart and get him out. I checked him this morning and things seem unchanged (no worse) and he is still eating and acting normal.

ChrisRD · Jan 29, 2022

Resurrecting this post as I still have this fish and never fully dealt with this issue. I had planned to separate this fish and treat when we relocated (new house build) but the timeline did not go as planned and things were chaotic toward the end and I did not have time to deal with it then.

The fish now resides in a 40 Breeder with the same Sixline and Cherub Angel (Clarkii was rehomed...got too large and belligerent as they often do). Other fish look fine. Otherwise things are the same as the original post...same live rock, no new livestock and nitrates run much lower in the 40B (~10 PPM). Still eats well (and everything I feed)...just hides a lot and doesn't look very good (still looks like much like the pic above or maybe worse).

Just curious as to what Jay and others might say about what this actually is. It seems amazingly persistent for bacterial (years)? Clearly it's not going to resolve by managing stress/aggression and providing good nutrition and water quality as I've seen in the past...so just want to make sure I'm on the right track before I start treatment.

Thanks for any replies!

Sebastiancrab · Jan 29, 2022

Your original post has a 2019 date? Jay Hemdal is your best authority. Post a video online and ping him.

Jay Hemdal · Jan 29, 2022

ChrisRD said:
Resurrecting this post as I still have this fish and never fully dealt with this issue. I had planned to separate this fish and treat when we relocated (new house build) but the timeline did not go as planned and things were chaotic toward the end and I did not have time to deal with it then.

The fish now resides in a 40 Breeder with the same Sixline and Cherub Angel (Clarkii was rehomed...got too large and belligerent as they often do). Other fish look fine. Otherwise things are the same as the original post...same live rock, no new livestock and nitrates run much lower in the 40B (~10 PPM). Still eats well (and everything I feed)...just hides a lot and doesn't look very good (still looks like much like the pic above or maybe worse).

Just curious as to what Jay and others might say about what this actually is. It seems amazingly persistent for bacterial (years)? Clearly it's not going to resolve by managing stress/aggression and providing good nutrition and water quality as I've seen in the past...so just want to make sure I'm on the right track before I start treatment.

Thanks for any replies!

That is really long term. I’ve never seen a disease caused by a living organism stay chronic for that length of time - things tend to either get worse, or get better.
Mycobacterium, fish TB is one bacterial disease that can be more chronic, but even then, fish usually succmb to it after 6 months or so of showing symptoms.
Could this be permanent scars of some sort ?
Jay

ChrisRD · Jan 29, 2022

I suppose that is a possibility (scars). For the first couple of years it seemed to stay out in the open most of the time...then eventually developed into a very reclusive fish...always hidden in the rockwork...only coming out to eat. That's when the issue seemed to become prominent...maybe scuffing from the rockwork?

Initially I thought maybe it was stressed and some sort of trichodina was creating a skin/scale issue...then I thought maybe an injury that progressed into a bacterial infection...but after all this time it's become quite a head scratcher.

I've probably had the fish for 5 years now and it is still feisty and feeds well...eating mysis, enriched brine, selcon soaked dry foods, Rod's etc. The Sixline and Cherub are in seemingly perfect health and show no aggression toward the Gramma (or each other).

Jay Hemdal · Jan 30, 2022

ChrisRD said:
I suppose that is a possibility (scars). For the first couple of years it seemed to stay out in the open most of the time...then eventually developed into a very reclusive fish...always hidden in the rockwork...only coming out to eat. That's when the issue seemed to become prominent...maybe scuffing from the rockwork?

Initially I thought maybe it was stressed and some sort of trichodina was creating a skin/scale issue...then I thought maybe an injury that progressed into a bacterial infection...but after all this time it's become quite a head scratcher.

I've probably had the fish for 5 years now and it is still feisty and feeds well...eating mysis, enriched brine, selcon soaked dry foods, Rod's etc. The Sixline and Cherub are in seemingly perfect health and show no aggression toward the Gramma (or each other).

Although it supposedly has some marine species, I've never seen Trichodina on a saltwater fish. In fact, I'm struggling to think of any time I've seen a chronic protozoan disease that lasted longer than about 6 months (Trichodina can be chronic, but just in FW).

The changing behavior is the opposite of what I'd expect in the gramma: reclusive when new, but coming out more as they mature and get used to things. I can't help but wonder if another fish is keeping it that way? You'll likely never seen signs of aggression, because this could be more intimidation; the presence of the other fish is keeping the gramma hunkered down. Both sixlines and cherubs can be nasty. The only thing I can offer is to feed the tank while you have your phone set up to video it, then leave the room. Reviewing the video *might* give you some insight.

Jay

ChrisRD · Jan 31, 2022

I'll try the video trick...that's a good idea.

I might try setting up a smaller tank for the Gramma to live on its own for a while and see what comes of that. Either that or add some dither fish (it actually seemed even more reclusive after I moved the Clarkii out which was the opposite of what I expected.) ...

Either way it sounds like there is no straight forward disease / treatment path here...

Thanks Jay...appreciate your input.