Royal Gramma in Copper treatment

pinocchio · Jun 20, 2023

I bought this fish 3 days ago and slowly raised copper levels to about 2.16. The fish has acted stressed since I got it. It was fine at the store, but was immediately sleeping on its side even before adding any copper. Today it’s breathing like this. Is that OK? I have an air stone and power head going. It’s been doing these small twitches and acting like this since I got it. Any suggestions?

pinocchio · Jun 20, 2023

Should also mention it has not eaten since I got it.

Sharkbait19 · Jun 20, 2023

Would you be able to add the video as a YouTube link? Attachments don’t usually play (at least on mobile).
Does it have plenty of hiding spots? Grammas are most comfortable when they have a lot of cover.

pinocchio · Jun 20, 2023

Sharkbait19 said:
Would you be able to add the video as a YouTube link? Attachments don’t usually play (at least on mobile).
Does it have plenty of hiding spots? Grammas are most comfortable when they have a lot of cover.

I only had pvc at first, but just added some fake rocks with holes.

Weeb · Jun 20, 2023

What copper are you using?

pinocchio said:
Today it’s breathing like this. Is that OK?

I'd estimate its breathing at about 100/min. This is an okay breathing rate.

The 'twitching' could mean a gill problem. But, without any other symptoms it's hard to tell. The fish appears to be good.

Before I begin a copper treatment on a new fish, I like to get it eating. Was it eating at the LFS?

Weeb · Jun 20, 2023

Answers to additional questions might help:
How was the fish acclimated to your QT?
How long (if you know) was the fish at the LFS?
Have you checked the water quality in the QT? -- Ammonia in particular?

pinocchio · Jun 20, 2023

Yea, from now on I’ll wait until fish eats before starting.

Parameters are all good. Ammonia badge is also good. I acclimated it by floating the bag for 45 min. Don’t know how long it was at LFS or how it was eating there, but it was out an about in the tank.

One thing that seems to help is when I turn the lights out on the tank. It’s just a cheap tank with leds, but the fish seems to do much better with lights out. Is it fine to leave lights off all day?

pinocchio · Jun 20, 2023

Also using copper power.

Weeb · Jun 20, 2023

pinocchio said:
Ammonia badge is also good.

Be cautious about relying on the Ammonia badge. Even experts in the hobby fail to notice a very small change in the badge. Also, the badge is subject to failure from heat, age, and/or damage. Do check for ammonia using a reliable test kit or if you can afford it, using a Hanna Checker.

pinocchio said:
Is it fine to leave lights off all day?

Generally, it's okay. In fact for a QT, using just ambient lighting (room lighting) is sufficient and preferred. It gives a new fish less stress.

vetteguy53081 · Jun 20, 2023

pinocchio said:
I bought this fish 3 days ago and slowly raised copper levels to about 2.16. The fish has acted stressed since I got it. It was fine at the store, but was immediately sleeping on its side even before adding any copper. Today it’s breathing like this. Is that OK? I have an air stone and power head going. It’s been doing these small twitches and acting like this since I got it. Any suggestions?

Fish appears normal and is intimidated as they always are with a new tank. However keep an eye on it for any abnormalities and best to introduce and keep under lower white intensity the first few days. Regarding copper, get to treatment level and do not ramp up as increasing copper level slowly can allow a given disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible.
twitching also not an abnormal behavior for these fish

Weeb · Jun 20, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
Regarding copper, get to treatment level and do not ramp up as increasing copper level slowly can allow a given disease to gain resistance

@vetteguy53081 Just curious about your statement. If a copper low level is a concern (and I'm not doubting that it is), I know many wholesalers and local marine fish stores that run low level copper in their fish tanks. So does this possibly mean they are creating copper resistant Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich) do you think?

vetteguy53081 · Jun 20, 2023

Weeb said:
@vetteguy53081 Just curious about your statement. If a copper low level is a concern (and I'm not doubting that it is), I know many wholesalers and local marine fish stores that run low level copper in their fish tanks. So does this possibly mean they are creating copper resistant Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich) do you think?

This was not about low level - Its about ramping up which does more harm than good. I often recommend 2.0-2.25 for delicate and smaller fish. OP stated he Slowly brought copper up.

Jay Hemdal · Jun 20, 2023

pinocchio said:
I bought this fish 3 days ago and slowly raised copper levels to about 2.16. The fish has acted stressed since I got it. It was fine at the store, but was immediately sleeping on its side even before adding any copper. Today it’s breathing like this. Is that OK? I have an air stone and power head going. It’s been doing these small twitches and acting like this since I got it. Any suggestions?

The copper isn't an issue since the symptoms started before the copper was added. When I see a twitchy royal gramma that is breathing fast (this one is at about 120 bpm) I immediately think gill flukes.

Although not the best scenario, you can run copper and praziquantel at the same time. I prefer bulk Praziquantel powder at 2.2 ppm, but Prazipro works as well....dosed twice, 8 days apart.

If you can't get the prazi right away, you could try a 5 minute FW dip to buy you a couple of days time.

The gramma not eating may not be directly related to this issue, the fish is pretty thin. Lots of
grammas are collected in Haiti and they use drugs there and don't handle the fish very well.

Jay

pinocchio · Jun 21, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
The copper isn't an issue since the symptoms started before the copper was added. When I see a twitchy royal gramma that is breathing fast (this one is at about 120 bpm) I immediately think gill flukes.

Although not the best scenario, you can run copper and praziquantel at the same time. I prefer bulk Praziquantel powder at 2.2 ppm, but Prazipro works as well....dosed twice, 8 days apart.

If you can't get the prazi right away, you could try a 5 minute FW dip to buy you a couple of days time.

The gramma not eating may not be directly related to this issue, the fish is pretty thin. Lots of
grammas are collected in Haiti and they use drugs there and don't handle the fish very well.

Jay

I ended up doing the freshwater dip, but the fish is still not doing great. Still not eating and just laying on the bottom. At this point it’s been about 4 days of no eating. Anything I can do at this point?

Also I am still trying to understand what could have gone wrong. He looked fine in store. I drove a few mins home, acclimated and dropped in a 10G QT of 78 degree RODI water. He immediately went to the bottom and has been there ever since. Did I do something wrong? The last Royal Grammar I had that I had to put into QT did the same thing and eventually died.

luilui · Jun 21, 2023

Mine twitches all the time, doesn't eat much though, only about 6 live brine shrimp/day.

Jay Hemdal · Jun 22, 2023

pinocchio said:
I ended up doing the freshwater dip, but the fish is still not doing great. Still not eating and just laying on the bottom. At this point it’s been about 4 days of no eating. Anything I can do at this point?

Also I am still trying to understand what could have gone wrong. He looked fine in store. I drove a few mins home, acclimated and dropped in a 10G QT of 78 degree RODI water. He immediately went to the bottom and has been there ever since. Did I do something wrong? The last Royal Grammar I had that I had to put into QT did the same thing and eventually died.

Do you know the salinity of the store's tank versus yours? Some stores keep their fish at lower salinity, and when you bring them home and try to acclimate them to full salinity, they have serious issues and can even die.

Do you know the ammonia level of the water right now? It could be a combination of acclimation stress and then ammonia building up in the QT.

Also, FW dips actually make the fish feel worse for the first day or so, then they slowly improve (if the issue was flukes). Since FW dips don't actually cure flukes, the fish will then gradually worsen as the flukes grow back, but at least if you see that spike of improvement, it confirms flukes are the issue.

Jay

Weeb · Jun 22, 2023

pinocchio said:
The last Royal Grammar I had that I had to put into QT did the same thing and eventually died.

Did you get this and the previous RG from the same source?

Besides checking the store water salinity, does the LFS use any additives (e.g., copper, hydrogen peroxide) in their system?

For now, I would do a large (50%) water change in the QT. Sometimes a large water change will get a fish to start eating.