Running carbon and Ich?

Reefin' Alaska · Mar 23, 2022

So I have a 625XL, only with 6 fish. The tank has Ich, and that's why I haven't added anymore. But it's managed and really a non-issue for the most part.

But, I have noticed in the last year or so, if I run carbon for any extended amount of time, usually a week to 10 days, spots will appear in a few days on my Tomini. All the other fish are fine, but once in a while my Flameback will get a spot or 2 when running carbon as well. Turn the reactor off, spots generally go away within a few days. I was thinking this is coincidence, but I've tested it a few times now, and it's happened every time. These fish have been ich managed for going on 3 years now and 2 tanks, I really don't want to kill them with my incompetent QT ability. (Haven't had the best luck with QT and copper.)

Could it be the carbon? Maybe switch brands?

Doctorgori · Mar 23, 2022

Tangs are sensitive to HLLE or whatevr they call it when carbon fines cause skin irritation in fish, tangs seem especially prone…
Could be a connection along skin sensitivity lines, seems plausible

threebuoys · Mar 23, 2022

Kurant said:
So I have a 625XL, only with 6 fish. The tank has Ich, and that's why I haven't added anymore. But it's managed and really a non-issue for the most part.

But, I have noticed in the last year or so, if I run carbon for any extended amount of time, usually a week to 10 days, spots will appear in a few days on my Tomini. All the other fish are fine, but once in a while my Flameback will get a spot or 2 when running carbon as well. Turn the reactor off, spots generally go away within a few days. I was thinking this is coincidence, but I've tested it a few times now, and it's happened every time. These fish have been ich managed for going on 3 years now and 2 tanks, I really don't want to kill them with my incompetent QT ability. (Haven't had the best luck with QT and copper.)

Could it be the carbon? Maybe switch brands?

Do you have any pictures?

What color are the spots?

More specifics about the water quality, any past fish deaths, and how you have administered QT and copper in the past?

I have never heard of carbon being associated with Crypto/ich. Carbon has been associated with HLLE particularly for tangs. HLLE presents differently than crypto however and would not be expected to come and go quickly as you've described.

Are you using fresh carbon each time? Is it possible you have reused carbon that had previously been used in an infected tank, that it trapped crpto cysts which were then reintroduced to the DT when you reused the carbon? Depending on how you stored the infected carbon and reactor, the cysts could have remained viable for a period of time.

If it is crypto, you will need to prepare a plan to treat your fish in QT, allow the DT to remain fallow for 45 - 75 days, and sterilize your equipment to prevent rec-contamination..

#fishmedic

Jay Hemdal · Mar 23, 2022

Kurant said:
So I have a 625XL, only with 6 fish. The tank has Ich, and that's why I haven't added anymore. But it's managed and really a non-issue for the most part.

But, I have noticed in the last year or so, if I run carbon for any extended amount of time, usually a week to 10 days, spots will appear in a few days on my Tomini. All the other fish are fine, but once in a while my Flameback will get a spot or 2 when running carbon as well. Turn the reactor off, spots generally go away within a few days. I was thinking this is coincidence, but I've tested it a few times now, and it's happened every time. These fish have been ich managed for going on 3 years now and 2 tanks, I really don't want to kill them with my incompetent QT ability. (Haven't had the best luck with QT and copper.)

Could it be the carbon? Maybe switch brands?

When you say you see spots on the fish, do you mean confirmed ich spots? Carbon does cause HLLE, but those lesions don't look quite lick ich does.

Could carbon use cause ich to flare up in a tank where it is being managed? I don't know. You would expect the opposite to be the case - lack of carbon, buildup of organics, declining water quality resulting in an increase of ich.

What brand of carbon are you using? I would suggest you use a good grade of pelleted carbon, just in general principle. A lot of people use Rox 0.8

Jay

Sharkbait19 · Mar 23, 2022

If the “spots” appear along the face and lateral line, it’s likely this is HLLE, which can be caused when carbon is used.

MnFish1 · Mar 23, 2022

These are TOTALLY theoretical. I might suggest that a couple things could be happening. 1. When you use carbon, you're removing organics - meaning your relative PAR (light levels) could be higher - which might be stressing the fish - and resulting in a small outbreak. BUT - having said that - my guess is that its not the issue.

2. Another possibility is that a chemical could be in your water thats naturally suppressing Cryptokaryon - and that carbon is removing that. Or that there is some other coincidental change that happens when you use carbon.

Also I have not seen HLLE develop acutely with carbon use - but more chronic. In general - I personally find it best to use the same filtration all of the time - rather than turning things off and on.

polyppal · Mar 23, 2022

seems like tang + carbon = bad juju…

What type of carbon do you use? Rox? Bituminous? How is it administered?

Jay Hemdal · Mar 23, 2022

MnFish1 said:
These are TOTALLY theoretical. I might suggest that a couple things could be happening. 1. When you use carbon, you're removing organics - meaning your relative PAR (light levels) could be higher - which might be stressing the fish - and resulting in a small outbreak. BUT - having said that - my guess is that its not the issue.

2. Another possibility is that a chemical could be in your water thats naturally suppressing Cryptokaryon - and that carbon is removing that. Or that there is some other coincidental change that happens when you use carbon.

Also I have not seen HLLE develop acutely with carbon use - but more chronic. In general - I personally find it best to use the same filtration all of the time - rather than turning things off and on.

Just a fyi - in our 2011 study as well as the Disney study, carbon use caused acute HLLE in 30 to 40 days…this was soft dusty carbon, but the effect was surprisingly fast.
Jay

MnFish1 · Mar 23, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Just a fyi - in our 2011 study as well as the Disney study, carbon use caused acute HLLE in 30 to 40 days…this was soft dusty carbon, but the effect was surprisingly fast.
Jay

Yes - I guess I based what I said on ' I run carbon for 7-10 days'. Do you think HLLE would 'pop up' that quickly?

Jay Hemdal · Mar 23, 2022

MnFish1 said:
Yes - I guess I based what I said on ' I run carbon for 7-10 days'. Do you think HLLE would 'pop up' that quickly?

No - the earliest I saw it was around 20 days.,

Jay

Reefin' Alaska · Mar 28, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
When you say you see spots on the fish, do you mean confirmed ich spots? Carbon does cause HLLE, but those lesions don't look quite lick ich does.

Could carbon use cause ich to flare up in a tank where it is being managed? I don't know. You would expect the opposite to be the case - lack of carbon, buildup of organics, declining water quality resulting in an increase of ich.

What brand of carbon are you using? I would suggest you use a good grade of pelleted carbon, just in general principle. A lot of people use Rox 0.8

Jay

Hi Jay,

No, I can't confirm it's ich. However, I can confirm I had an ich outbreak in another tank some time ago. I'm assuming that's what it is because I did not treat with copper, and chose to manage instead of trying to manage a QT, I've simply just never had good success keeping fish alive in QT. Not sure why. I've successfully managed it with the same 5 fish for going on 4 years now. I know with 100% certainty ich is in the tank, so I'm assuming that's what it is.

The spots do however almost always show up around the Tomini's head, typically above the eyes, and between the eyes. Rarely, if ever do they show up on the body. My wrasse and clowns have never developed spots since the original outbreak in 2018. Angel every once in a while, but they go away within a couple days every time. As I said, I've stuck to the same feeding routine, and water change schedule and it's worked out well.

I just found it awfully coincidental that when I run carbon for any extended period, the spots almost always show up. I've always used Rox in this tank and never reuse old media.

It may purely just be coincidence. But I have a good amount of time with these fish, and I try to be aware of what's going on all the time.

Reefin' Alaska · Mar 28, 2022

polyppal said:
seems like tang + carbon = bad juju…

What type of carbon do you use? Rox? Bituminous? How is it administered?

Rox, always in the small BRS reactor.

Reefin' Alaska · Mar 28, 2022

MnFish1 said:
These are TOTALLY theoretical. I might suggest that a couple things could be happening. 1. When you use carbon, you're removing organics - meaning your relative PAR (light levels) could be higher - which might be stressing the fish - and resulting in a small outbreak. BUT - having said that - my guess is that its not the issue.

2. Another possibility is that a chemical could be in your water thats naturally suppressing Cryptokaryon - and that carbon is removing that. Or that there is some other coincidental change that happens when you use carbon.

Also I have not seen HLLE develop acutely with carbon use - but more chronic. In general - I personally find it best to use the same filtration all of the time - rather than turning things off and on.

I agree. I think I will skip using carbon entirely as I don't run any media at all 95% of the time.

My water changes are conducted by Versa pumps, so it's consistent all the time.