Ryan's Biome Cycling Talk

[Hooz]

Just wanted to give Ryan a shoutout! I'm on my second viewing now of his Biome Cycling talk, and there is some GREAT stuff in there. It has changed the way I look at cycling tanks and what the definition of a "mature" tank is. I've heard people say for decades that you had to wait 6 months for anemones, or a year for SPS. Nobody could ever say why, but I think you're on to it.

Anyway... Good stuff. I think everyone should watch it. I just ordered some phyto and pods myself.

 

[Hooz]

My only "addition" would be to discuss utilitarian options for those of us with nano tanks. Tangs, rabbit fish and file fish aren't options for a lot of us with "tiny" tanks. I've always tried to compensate with varieties of snails, hermits, etc, but a nice list would be cool.

I suppose even the sand/barebottom arguement would come into play. A lot of the snails I normally use (Nassarius, Cerith and Dwarf Cerith) bury in the sand during the day. Are they still options for a barebottom tank? What are good alternatives? Would a Springerii Damsel be a decent alternative to a wrasse for flatworms (red or AEF) in a small and/or barebottom tank?

So many more questions!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Just wanted to give Ryan a shoutout! I'm on my second viewing now of his Biome Cycling talk, and there is some GREAT stuff in there. It has changed the way I look at cycling tanks and what the definition of a "mature" tank is. I've heard people say for decades that you had to wait 6 months for anemones, or a year for SPS. Nobody could ever say why, but I think you're on to it.

Anyway... Good stuff. I think everyone should watch it. I just ordered some phyto and pods myself.

I haven't seen it yet...what were some of the things that were game changers for you and how did it change your view of what a mature tank is??

 

[Hooz]

I haven't seen it yet...what were some of the things that were game changers for you and how did it change your view of what a mature tank is??

Diversity of bacteria and how they are (potentially) introduced, the importance of pods... Man... So much good stuff, but those were two of the big ones for me.

I never gave much thought to bacteria past the initial cycle, but there is a LOT more to it than just nitrifying bacteria.

I mean, how many times have you seen someone say that you needed to wait 6 months before adding an anemone? Did they have any idea WHY you needed to wait? What are you actually waiting for? Then there's always that guy who setup his tank and added one the next day and it's thriving! What did he do differently that the 6 month rule didn't apply to him?!

I just thought pods were something you picked up along the way, but the importance of establishing a population early can have a huge impact on the maturation process of a tank, specifically avoiding the dreaded "ugly phase".

I probably simplified things too much as there are a lot more takeaways from the video. Enough that I've now watched it twice. There is still a lot to understand, but I think this video takes a HUGE step in that direction.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Diversity of bacteria and how they are (potentially) introduced, the importance of pods... Man... So much good stuff, but those were two of the big ones for me.

I never gave much thought to bacteria past the initial cycle, but there is a LOT more to it than just nitrifying bacteria.

I mean, how many times have you seen someone say that you needed to wait 6 months before adding an anemone? Did they have any idea WHY you needed to wait? What are you actually waiting for? Then there's always that guy who setup his tank and added one the next day and it's thriving! What did he do differently that the 6 month rule didn't apply to him?!

I just thought pods were something you picked up along the way, but the importance of establishing a population early can have a huge impact on the maturation process of a tank, specifically avoiding the dreaded "ugly phase".

I probably simplified things too much as there are a lot more takeaways from the video. Enough that I've now watched it twice. There is still a lot to understand, but I think this video takes a HUGE step in that direction.

Sounds like it's worth a watch! I was aware of the bacteria and how important they are though! So many people expect pouring a bottle of Dr. Tim's or other nitrifying bacterial product in to cycle the tank will turn what was sterile one day ago into a thriving reef magically overnight.

 

[Hooz]

I'm curious. Ryan talked a bit about strains of beneficial bacteria that exist in the water column. As with the Ocean Direct sand, or the AF Life Source mud, would it be beneficial to explore, say, Nutri Seawater as well?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm curious. Ryan talked a bit about strains of beneficial bacteria that exist in the water column. As with the Ocean Direct sand, or the AF Life Source mud, would it be beneficial to explore, say, Nutri Seawater as well?

Call me old fashioned, but you'd probably have great results simply using wild collected live rock and then adding a carbon source since it would also have at least some free swimming bacteria on it that would multiply very quickly

 

[Hooz]

Call me old fashioned, but you'd probably have great results simply using wild collected live rock and then adding a carbon source since it would also have at least some free swimming bacteria on it that would multiply very quickly

That would probably work, but I'm specifically interested in introducing diversity in an established tank, without introducing any (new) pests. I was thinking that dumping a 4 gallon bucket of Nutri Seawater in with my fresh mixed water change water would be an easy way to (potentially) do that. And at $22 for a bucket, it's pretty inexpensive too.

 

[beesnreefs]

That would probably work, but I'm specifically interested in introducing diversity in an established tank, without introducing any (new) pests. I was thinking that dumping a 4 gallon bucket of Nutri Seawater in with my fresh mixed water change water would be an easy way to (potentially) do that. And at $22 for a bucket, it's pretty inexpensive too.

Love this idea!

Just one thing to consider…according to the research done by @AquaBiomics there are a few major families of bacteria that seem to be at high levels in healthy reef aquariums. Most (not all, but most) are not typically found in the water column…they are found on surfaces. The suggestion here is that while natural sea water will likely come with some beneficial bacteria, it probably won’t have everything you want/need.

 

[Hooz]

Love this idea!

Just one thing to consider…according to the research done by @AquaBiomics there are a few major families of bacteria that seem to be at high levels in healthy reef aquariums. Most (not all, but most) are not typically found in the water column…they are found on surfaces. The suggestion here is that while natural sea water will likely come with some beneficial bacteria, it probably won’t have everything you want/need.

Yeah. He said he had best results with AF Life Source "mud" and Ocean Direct sand, but specifically mentioned bacteria in the water column as well. That's what got me thinking about Nutri-Seawater.

My NSW will be here any minute. I got the 4.4g (2x 2.2g jugs) and plan to mix in in to my next 2 batches of freshly mixed water change water. For $22, it seemed like a no-brainer.

I'm also planning on adding some Ocean Direct sand, and a bit of Life Source to each of my tanks as well at some point. Just to cover all my bases.

 

[rennjidk]

Call me old fashioned, but you'd probably have great results simply using wild collected live rock and then adding a carbon source since it would also have at least some free swimming bacteria on it that would multiply very quickly

We don't need to speculate. They just did a 30 week long test with dna testing to back up their data, and live rock directly from the ocean is not a good idea. All you're doing is introducing a bunch of pests that your previously sterile tank is not prepared to deal with, and it will be quickly overrun.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

We don't need to speculate. They just did a 30 week long test with dna testing to back up their data, and live rock directly from the ocean is not a good idea. All you're doing is introducing a bunch of pests that your previously sterile tank is not prepared to deal with, and it will be quickly overrun.

Wow I'll have to watch this series since that seems to contrast sharply with what I've heard firsthand from many people's experiences...since I haven't seen it yet can you inform me what pests I've been introducing and being overrun with? Btw, what part of the tank is actually sterile except for the glass right before adding anything to the tank like a single piece of rock and the water which almost immediately colonized by bacteria as soon as you add live rock?

 

[Jubei2006]

So Ryan said the ocean live rock wasnt the best idea in the display. He said he would use it, but dark cure it first to get rid of the phytosynthetic uglies. IIRC, it was one of the 4 that got rid of the challenge uglies placed in the tank around week 16 or so.

 

[Jubei2006]

My only "addition" would be to discuss utilitarian options for those of us with nano tanks. Tangs, rabbit fish and file fish aren't options for a lot of us with "tiny" tanks. I've always tried to compensate with varieties of snails, hermits, etc, but a nice list would be cool.

I suppose even the sand/barebottom arguement would come into play. A lot of the snails I normally use (Nassarius, Cerith and Dwarf Cerith) bury in the sand during the day. Are they still options for a barebottom tank? What are good alternatives? Would a Springerii Damsel be a decent alternative to a wrasse for flatworms (red or AEF) in a small and/or barebottom tank?

So many more questions!

Lawnmower blenny, tuxedo urchin? And possum wrasse? Seems more "stable" than a six line.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

So Ryan said the ocean live rock wasnt the best idea in the display. He said he would use it, but dark cure it first to get rid of the phytosynthetic uglies. IIRC, it was one of the 4 that got rid of the challenge uglies placed in the tank around week 16 or so.

Ok, this makes it sound a lot different than saying that "it's not a good idea because you're introducing a bunch of pests that will quickly overrun your tank"

 

[Jubei2006]

Ok, this makes it sound a lot different than saying that "it's not a good idea because you're introducing a bunch of pests that will quickly overrun your tank"

Yeah, I'd still quarantine, dark cure, and look for the big ones (aiptasia, vermetids, bad nudibranchs, crabs, etc) before they go into a tank.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yeah, I'd still quarantine, dark cure, and look for the big ones (aiptasia, vermetids, bad nudibranchs, crabs, etc) before they go into a tank.

I'd be more concerned about hitchhikers if I had really big systems but smaller systems there's no problem removing them usually...and judging by a recent post from last night it's not just me who hasn't had any real issue with hitchhikers when using rock from the ocean (although I would be more careful if I had big systems)...I just look at the fact that there are components of live ocean rock concerning the microbiome you just can't ever replicate otherwise and because of that it definitely has always seemed like a step in the right direction

 

[rennjidk]

Ok, this makes it sound a lot different than saying that "it's not a good idea because you're introducing a bunch of pests that will quickly overrun your tank"

The point is that we need to move away from “recreating the ocean” in our small systems. There’s a ton of stuff in the ocean which is natural and biodiverse. Take for instances acro eating red bugs. Perfectly natural and present in every reef on the planet. We cherry pick what we want in our tanks, in a small unnatural environment with fish and coral which would otherwise not encounter one another in the wild. Yes, you can dark cure the rock and get rid of the photosynthetics, but you’re still opening yourself up to an entire world of “biodiversity” that many of us battle for weeks to get rid of. There’s no point in defending this idea anymore, especially when there are other methods which yield a better microbiome without these issues.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

The point is that we need to move away from “recreating the ocean” in our small systems. There’s a ton of stuff in the ocean which is natural and biodiverse. Take for instances acro eating red bugs. Perfectly natural and present in every reef on the planet. We cherry pick what we want in our tanks, in a small unnatural environment with fish and coral which would otherwise not encounter one another in the wild. Yes, you can dark cure the rock and get rid of the photosynthetics, but you’re still opening yourself up to an entire world of “biodiversity” that many of us battle for weeks to get rid of. There’s no point in defending this idea anymore, especially when there are other methods which yield a better microbiome without these issues.

You do remember that one of the methods he definitely supported was using live rock, right? He just said he'd dark cure it first. He emphasized the importance of copepods which come naturally on live rock and at 37:45 he said "Handled right, it (wet, live rock) can deal with the uglies." He then listed the good aspects as the microbiome it hosts, the micro crustaceans, and coralline. The only bad aspects were organics and nutrients along with the price tag which is purely dependent on where you live. The primary negative he pointed out were the photosynthetic "uglies" which can be avoided. And he did say "biodiversity maybe important, although he personally wouldn't chase that dragon".

 

[rennjidk]

You do remember that one of the methods he definitely supported was using live rock, right? He just said he'd dark cure it first. He emphasized the importance of copepods which come naturally on live rock and at 37:45 he said "Handled right, it (wet, live rock) can deal with the uglies." He then listed the good aspects as the microbiome it hosts, the micro crustaceans, and coralline. The only bad aspects were organics and nutrients along with the price tag which is purely dependent on where you live. The primary negative he pointed out were the photosynthetic "uglies" which can be avoided. And he did say "biodiversity maybe important, although he personally wouldn't chase that dragon".

You’re missing the entire point of what I’m saying. You can buy pods. You can buy products like ocean direct sand and AF life source. Why buy ocean cured rock and pay to have it shipped? You still need to dark cure it for weeks. You still need to quarantine it for hitchhiking pests, and even after that process you’re still not guaranteed to have over come everything. The whole series was supposed to give you an introspective look into what’s going on at a microscopic level in our tanks, and you’re using it to defend outdated practices and keep with the status quo. There’s a reason our tanks aren’t filled with Xenia and lit by black lights anymore. You can do it, but why?