?'s for those experienced successful reefers with "with caution" fish

[stanleo]

I peruse the build threads of those that I consider experienced and successful reefers, especially those that have similar sized tanks to mine. I constantly see their pics with copperband butterfly fish, flame angels, even drawf lionfish and harlequin tusks and I have questions for you. I want a copperband and a flame angel but it makes me really nervous.

When you do it, was it good the first time you put them in?

Do you have any issues with them?

Was it nail biting?

Did you just decide if they ate certain corals or inverts you could live with it?

Are their certain corals/inverts you avoid because you have them?

Did you have a plan for removing them from the tank if they didn't work? Have you ever had to do that?

Would you add those fish again if you had it to do over?

I don't have another tank setup ATM and probably won't unless I do what I am considering and turn my 110 gallon freshwater into a FOWLR. If you answer just one of my questions it would give more info. Thank you.

 

[DSC reef]

Had a copperband and a flame angel in a reef tank with tridacna, LPS and SPS. The copperband was a model citizen and the flame angel nipped here and there at SPS but nothing that caused an issue. Had great success with coral beauty angelfish as well. It was nail biting as I love tridacna but had a plan to catch if there was an issue.

 

[ca1ore]

I think ‘success’ with a with-caution fish is more about the human than the fish. If you are somebody that freaks out at the first nip then just don’t ever get one; if you can tolerate some damage and accept that it is just in their nature then go for it. I’m personally of the latter ilk, and always assume that a with-caution fish WILL inflict some damage .... that way I’m never disappointed.

 

[pcon]

Totally agree with @ca1ore its entirely about setting appropriate expectations. You can only expect a fish to act in its nature. If you go into the setup with the with caution fish in mind. And select corals around the fish’s habits, it can be awesome. My build thread is titled “reef safe with caution” because I love angels and butterflies. I would also highly recommend this MACNA talk. Which goes into further detail on some of your more specific questions.

 

[cmaxwell39]

I agree with the statements above. Don't plan on putting most angels in a reef full of acans and brain corals and have success. If you know that a fish you want to keep and a coral that you love are not compatible you will ultimately have to make a choice on which one to keep. But if you plan well in advance what fish you want and do your research that on the whole they are compatible with the type of corals you want to keep, you can enjoy both. It still is not a guarantee of success, but at least you know you have a shot.

One other tip would be to have some more mature colonies that can take some nipping before adding the "with caution" fish. This will increase your chances of success as one or two good nips will not put the coral in jeoparady. Small frags tend not to fare as well.

 

[ZoWhat]

With Caution = fish that will NIP and/or EAT feeder polyps that extend out for a coral to feed.

Once a "with caution" starting nipping it irritates the coral....which either kills the coral or stunts its growth. Keeps the coral from expand outward in its normal growth pattern.



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[GoldeneyeRet]

No to the first question, yes to the rest.

 

[X-37B]

With Caution = fish that will NIP and/or EAT feeder polyps that extend out for a coral to feed.

Once a "with caution" starting nipping it irritates the coral....which either kills the coral or stunts its growth. Keeps the coral from expand outward in its normal growth pattern.



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Just caught my tank bred cherub pygmy angelfish tonight.
Was perfect for 3 months then noticed 80% of my corals had no polyp extention. It did not take any bite marks out of any corals but my alk consumptuon dropped from 45 mls a day esv to the current 30 mls in less than a week. They were "stressed" and should bounce back in a few days.
Glad I monitor it.
Back to the lfs it goes. Someone will get a nice well fed cherub.

 

[pcon]

Once a "with caution" starting nipping it irritates the coral....which either kills the coral or stunts its growth. Keeps the coral from expand outward in its normal growth pattern.

This is pretty melodramatic and not entirely reflective of reality. Many corals especially SPS are nipped at in the wild during the day, you don’t expect to see daytime polyp extension on acros in the wild. They primarily feed at night. Repeated nipping preventing things like zoanthids from opening and getting light, and when nipping causes damage is it going to impact coral health. But occasional daytime nipping is very natural and often will not effect coral growth. The tolerance of nipping is highly dependent on the coral or sessile invert in question.

 

[X-37B]

This is pretty melodramatic and not entirely reflective of reality. Many corals especially SPS are nipped at in the wild during the day, you don’t expect to see daytime polyp extension on acros in the wild. They primarily feed at night. Repeated nipping preventing things like zoanthids from opening and getting light, and when nipping causes damage is it going to impact coral health. But occasional daytime nipping is very natural and often will not effect coral growth. The tolerance of nipping is highly dependent on the coral or sessile invert in question.

This is true. However corals in the wild are alot bigger than frags in our tanks. I agree if your tank is large along with large colonys it would be less of an issue.
In many acro tanks polyps are open in the day and closed at night. At least that has been my experience as well as many I know.
As we always say all tanks are different. Keep what make you and your corals happy!

 

[Roosterjack]

Centropyge angels are a fish I have had bad luck with, not so much in coral nipping but in general bullying and harassment of other fish. Despite many reefers having far better luck with them I seem to get the aggressive specimens.

I am following this thread though as I still hold out hope for success.

 

[ZoWhat]

This is pretty melodramatic and not entirely reflective of reality. Many corals especially SPS are nipped at in the wild during the day, you don’t expect to see daytime polyp extension on acros in the wild. They primarily feed at night. Repeated nipping preventing things like zoanthids from opening and getting light, and when nipping causes damage is it going to impact coral health. But occasional daytime nipping is very natural and often will not effect coral growth. The tolerance of nipping is highly dependent on the coral or sessile invert in question.

I disagree....

How can you compare nipping in the wild where there's quadrillion ka-billion square MILES of reef-like shoreline..... and compare it to a nipping fish contained in a 90g to 240g confined glass box.

In the wild, infinite nipping choices for the fish... less chance for one particular coral being nipped, where the one particular coral has time to heal.

In a contained glass box, the constant nipping bc of the confined space the coral has very little time to heal.

Prime example.... would you like to take your chances with hungry maneating hunting wild bears:

1) In a 500 square mile area?
Or
2) In a confined area the size of a football field?


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[pcon]

This is true. However corals in the wild are alot bigger than frags in our tanks. I agree if your tank is large along with large colonys it would be less of an issue.
In many acro tanks polyps are open in the day and closed at night. At least that has been my experience as well as many I know.
As we always say all tanks are different. Keep what make you and your corals happy!

I understand why you would say this, and while an okay rhetorical point this simply isn’t accurate. I have small acro frags which are nipped at several times an hour and have not slowed down in growth. Is it possible for a misbehaving centropyge or other with caution fish to stunt growth and kill corals absolutely, however it is not accurate to say that any nipping will result in this. Remember big corals in the ocean often start as a single cell.
While daytime polyp extension is common in captivity the experts generally agree that its overblown as an indicator of coral health. If your reef keeping goal is lots of daytime polyp extension then a with caution fish isn’t for you. But it’s an important distinction that this is an artificial goal, and not essential to many corals growth or health.

I disagree....

How can you compare nipping in the wild where there's quadrillion ka-billion square MILES of reef-like shoreline..... and compare it to a nipping fish contained in a 90g to 240g confined glass box.

In the wild, infinite nipping choices for the fish... less chance for one particular coral being nipped, where the one particular coral has time to heal.

In a contained glass box, the constant nipping bc of the confined space the coral has very little time to heal.

Prime example.... would you like to take your chances with hungry maneating hunting wild bears:

1) In a 500 square mile area?
Or
2) In a confined area the size of a football field?

Your response to your opinion being called melodramatic is to double down with a comparison to “maneating bears”? Your comparison and premises are inaccurate.

We aren’t talking about man eating bears, we are talking about bees. While I wouldn’t keep bees in my back yard plenty of beekeepers swear by it. Certainly some people are allergic to bees and suffer serious damage from just one sting. But that is a small minority, and not really why most people wouldn’t keep them in their backyard. The vast majority of people simply don’t like the experience of being stung, and so they don’t want to keep bees in their back yard. Doesn’t harm them but not something they are eager to increase their risk of. The beekeepers think this is silly and they should just step up to the risk. The beekeepers know not to invite people over, or to take precautions for those people, with severe allergies.

And realistically we aren’t even talking about bees, centropyge nipping is more like mosquito bites. Harmless, irritation the vast majority of the time.

it’s wholly inaccurate to say that any nipping automatically leads to stunting and death of corals. A great many corals can thrive with nipping even at small sizes in small tanks. Look at my tank, look at dozens of others on this site. Watch the video I linked. As ca1ore put it it is about setting goals and expectations accurately in the beginning. Certain corals are incompatible with certain with caution individuals. If your primary care in the tank is your corals, If you are unwilling to take a degree of risk with the corals, if you must have specific species or families of coral: then a with caution fish may not be a good fit. But saying “ Once a ‘with caution’ starting nipping it irritates the coral....which either kills the coral or stunts its growth. Keeps the coral from expand outward in its normal growth pattern.” is not reflective of reality. Corals both in our tanks and in the wild get nipped at and continue to thrive. Not every coral in every circumstance, it is highly dependent on the coral in question, and the frequency and intensity of the nipping.

With caution fishes, angels, butterflies, bennies, make fantastic additions to tanks and should not be overlooked because of occasional nipping or eating of a meaty LPS. But should be considered as they fit into the whole tank system, and the keepers goals.