SALT....True or false?

[Diesel]

Somebody told me this and it blew my mind..................

QUOTE "It is not unusual to see some residue after mixing. Here are a couple of snippets from this thread that help explain this. Personally, I see very little residue when I mix at home. This is most likely due to the fact that I use the water quickly after mixing. What residue I do see is in the lower section of the barrel where unused water may mix for as long as two weeks before another batch is made.

When mixing this salt, we have found that 24 hours or less is ideal. The longer you let the salt mix, the more C02 it will take on and the more precipitation you will encounter. C02 --> water --> carbonic acid --> bicarbonates/carbonates. Mixing the salt for more than 24 hours can cause a decrease in alkalinity and pH, resulting in a precipitation of calcium and carbonates. When we mix it here at Seachem, we mix it in 50 gallon drums with one powerhead at room temperature (22-25 degrees Centigrade). There is no need to use a heater. Typically the water is clear within a few hours but sometimes we have to use it within an hour of mixing, when it is still cloudy. This cloudiness clears rapidly once introduced to the tank, generally within 30 minutes, and will not cause any harm to the inhabitants. Furthermore, cloudiness seems to persist more with buckets that have calcium and alkalinity levels on the higher end of the range. This is really inevitable when you have such high levels of those particular components.


The residue that is left in the container is a direct result of 1. the highly concentrated materials used in the salt, 2. letting it mix too long 3. a natural occurrence when mixing a high quality salt. We do an acid wash on our buckets about once a month. This can be done at home simply using Acid Buffer and water. Your bucket will be clean instantly and easily."

I have to say there's some truth in this but what I'm worrying about this is that a lot and I mean a lot of reefers let their new saltwater mix sit for a few days with or without powerhead running.
I for one is one of them and I know reefers that have a large auto WC system, they just mix 40,60 or more gallons at the time and most of it will be in a holding container for more than a week or so.

So what do you think??

 

[Eckolancer]

It will leave a residue behind over time.


Sent from inside the shark tank!

 

[backpack]

What results do you see in water chemistry after a large water change? I do a WC within 12 hours of mixing but that's me. If you use stuff that mixes lower like Tropic marins coral pro you wont see as much fallout. Orange residue is clay wich is the binding agent in some mixes as well.

 

[Chompers]

*Cringe* It's clear that the author is not a chemist, nor did he/she take chemistry in high school. Since he/she professes to work at Seachem, certainly they could have found someone to do some fact checking. That write up should not have been allowed to represent the minds at Seachem.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm not too clear from the first post what residue we're even talking about, so I think we can refrain from questioning anyone's academic or professional background at this point.

What's being described in the hacked Seachem quote is "potato chipping" where you actually get some crust forming - probably carbonate based....never seen this where a heater wasn't used in mixing...not sure it can happen at "room temp"...at least I've never seen it. (And I mix Reef Crystals for a lo-o-o-o-ng time sometimes.) There's no reason to use a heater in your mixing vat unless you are mixing in a very cold environment.

What "most people" mean when they talk about residue from a mixing vat is a sort of powdery or slimy coating in consistency and usually brownish/orangish or blackish in color. (This can also be covering the "potato chipping" so both may look like one in the same thing.) From what I've been told, this is a kind of clay used in chelating some of the salt components that eventually settles out. Whether that is accurate or not, based on its prevalence, clearly it is harmless. Personally I wipe down my mixing vats a couple times a year for good measure and I don't think about it outside of that.

I hope this helps!

-Matt

 

[Diesel]

What results do you see in water chemistry after a large water change? I do a WC within 12 hours of mixing but that's me. If you use stuff that mixes lower like Tropic marins coral pro you wont see as much fallout. Orange residue is clay wich is the binding agent in some mixes as well.

Not doing large WC, I do 5 gall at the time three times a week on my 275 gall system.
In that case it's not bending my # as much, that said test that I did on my # showed me no change before or after the WC.

 

[Diesel]

*Cringe* It's clear that the author is not a chemist, nor did he/she take chemistry in high school. Since he/she professes to work at Seachem, certainly they could have found someone to do some fact checking. That write up should not have been allowed to represent the minds at Seachem.

Yes it was Seachem.

 

[Diesel]

I'm not too clear from the first post what residue we're even talking about, so I think we can refrain from questioning anyone's academic or professional background at this point.

What's being described in the hacked Seachem quote is "potato chipping" where you actually get some crust forming - probably carbonate based....never seen this where a heater wasn't used in mixing...not sure it can happen at "room temp"...at least I've never seen it. (And I mix Reef Crystals for a lo-o-o-o-ng time sometimes.) There's no reason to use a heater in your mixing vat unless you are mixing in a very cold environment.

What "most people" mean when they talk about residue from a mixing vat is a sort of powdery or slimy coating in consistency and usually brownish/orangish or blackish in color. (This can also be covering the "potato chipping" so both may look like one in the same thing.) From what I've been told, this is a kind of clay used in chelating some of the salt components that eventually settles out. Whether that is accurate or not, based on its prevalence, clearly it is harmless. Personally I wipe down my mixing vats a couple times a year for good measure and I don't think about it outside of that.

I hope this helps!

-Matt

That makes sense "potato chipping", thanks.
And as I stated it was told to me and not hacked, that's such a big word and understanding.

 

[Chompers]

I'm not too clear from the first post what residue we're even talking about, so I think we can refrain from questioning anyone's academic or professional background at this point.

.

That's a strange line of logic. The person's obvious lack of basic chemistry (let alone reef chemistry) is enough to take his or her measure. The failure in reef chemistry and logic in general is why this person should not be representing the company.

And the person made it quite clear that the residue is precipitation.

QUOTE "The longer you let the salt mix, the more C02 it will take on and the more precipitation you will encounter. C02 --> water --> carbonic acid --> bicarbonates/carbonates. Mixing the salt for more than 24 hours can cause a decrease in alkalinity and pH, resulting in a precipitation of calcium and carbonates. .

Failure in Chemistry:
A decrease in pH and alkalinity will increase the solubility of the calcium (Langlier). And the "carbonates" is the alkalinity. What allows the calcium to supersaturate in saltwater is the magnesium. 24 hours or even seven days of CO2 isn't going to be the cause of magnesium depletion to cause precipitation of the calcium.

Failure in logic:
There's nothing magical about the reef tank or the holding tank. A reef tank is nothing more than an over glorified holding tank. The saltwater is going to do the exact same thing whether it is in the reef tank or in the holding tank. If CO2 is going to affect one, it is going to equally affect the other.

QUOTE "The residue that is left in the container is a direct result of 1. the highly concentrated materials used in the salt, 2. letting it mix too long 3. a natural occurrence when mixing a high quality salt. We do an acid wash on our buckets about once a month. This can be done at home simply using Acid Buffer and water. Your bucket will be clean instantly and easily.".

A high quality salt mix doesn't precipitate when it is mixed (as long as the salt is added to the water and not vice versa) (and not allowed to sit and cake on the bottom). But even a high quality salt that was poorly handled will have precipitation when it is properly mixed. (Containers or bags that do not reseal or were not sealed is poor handling.) Many of the components of the salt mix are desiccants, meaning they absorb moisture from the air. The calcium component is Calcium Chloride and will literally melt when exposed to the air (An example is Damp Rid). When it absorbs water, it can react with the Carbonate and Bicarbonate components. When it does, it forms Calcium Carbonate which of course we know is insoluble once it has precipitated out. The same story goes for Magnesium Carbonate. And if either forms outside of solution, neither is going to go into solution.

I have experienced mix so bad that it literally was a solid block (boxed Instant Ocean). After I broke it up, mixed it, and let the precipitate settle, there wasn't enough magnesium to keep the calcium in solution. Like the certified idiot that I am, instead of dumping it I used it. It caused the calcium in my tank to precipitate. It dropped from over 400 to about 320ish (I can't find my log). However, I have also had Instant Ocean that mixed without a trace of precipitation.

I'm getting the feeling that the person that wrote the comment was a salesman or PR person covering for a bad mix, poor handling issues, or improper mixing on the reefers part. Salt mix that clouds up is not a sign of high quality mix, it is a sign of bad quality. To try to cover it up is a sign of low standards. To ask us to accept their low standards means that they aren't going to look for a solution any time soon.

I'm sorry for being Mr. Negative today.

 

[mcarroll]

I guess i was just saying the attack was irrelevant and distracting to the topic at hand (which is no more clear than "some residue") more than I was saying they were right in any sort of way.

We all have our days, and our experience is what it is.

-Matt

 

[mcarroll]

That makes sense "potato chipping", thanks.
And as I stated it was told to me and not hacked, that's such a big word and understanding.

Does that description fit with what you are seeing when you mix? (vs the powdery slime type?)

I haven't used Seachem salt, so I don't know offhand what levels theirs should mix to. If their Ca/Alk/Mg numbers are in excess of Reef Crystals then certainly there's room for some different experiences than mine.

Trying a small batch of another brand of salt might be a good test to see if your mixing process has anything to do with it.

-Matt

P.S. By hacked I didn't mean you made it up or anything, I just meant the presentation of the quotes from other people. They were all kinda "hacked" together within the rest of your post vs "clearly quoted" so one could easily read what seachem told them vs what they told you vs what you're telling us. Not a big deal really...'specially since we're here now.

 

[Diesel]

Does that description fit with what you are seeing when you mix? (vs the powdery slime type?)

I haven't used Seachem salt, so I don't know offhand what levels theirs should mix to. If their Ca/Alk/Mg numbers are in excess of Reef Crystals then certainly there's room for some different experiences than mine.

Trying a small batch of another brand of salt might be a good test to see if your mixing process has anything to do with it.

-Matt

P.S. By hacked I didn't mean you made it up or anything, I just meant the presentation of the quotes from other people. They were all kinda "hacked" together within the rest of your post vs "clearly quoted" so one could easily read what seachem told them vs what they told you vs what you're telling us. Not a big deal really...'specially since we're here now.

Thanks Matt, no big deal as the post was send to me too.
Not using Seachem at all just the mix time doesn't make sense to me. I'll mix a few day ahead and do three times a week a WC of 5 gall each on my 250 system.
I'm using RC and it works great for me, I'll dose ALK, CAL and MAG and run full Zeovit, to me I went with the cheapest salt out there and bought a whole pallet of 12 buckets in a auction a year ago.
I have no stuff or anything in my mix container other than that little bit of potato chipping.

Ben.

 

[mcarroll]

Interesting...as I said I also use Reef Crystals (i think 7 years now) and sometimes mix a lo-o-ng time. Current batch has been mixing on stand-by for at least 2-3 weeks, for example. Even so I've never had potato chipping happen. I now mix by hand with a paddle and air stones, but used to use propeller pumps and it's been a pretty consistent experience either way, FWIW.

If you think it's worth investigating, it really would be interesting to me to find out what would happen if you even just tried switching to Instant Ocean (or Brightwell, regular TM, Crystal Seas...anything not heavily fortified in ca/alk/mg).

What is the process you follow when you mix up a new batch of salt?

-Matt

P.S. Where'd you find a pallet of RC for sale?? LOL

 

[LisaD]

P.S. Where'd you find a pallet of RC for sale?? LOL

That's what I wanna know!!! Lol



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[Diesel]

HAHA, my wife thought I was crazy when I came home with it on the truck. I got it from a store that went out of business and told the owner take the whole pallet. it had only 12 buckets on it.