Stephen8169301
Valuable Member
Id switch to rodi this very well could be the issue here
Sand Bed
- Thread starter kp33
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kp33
Active Member
I have all those cleaners except the worms, and the LFS suggested doing it in increments over 4-6 weeks to not shock the tank until it’s all out then add the new sand so no old will mix with new.
kp33
Active Member
It is RODI from my LFS. They are a very reputable LFS in my area if their water was an issue all their clients would have this problem. Plus I have checked it with Hanna and no phosphate issues.
tmRoth
Community Member
How deep is your sand bed? I don't think you ever said. Having just an inch or so of sand is different than having a "deep sand bed" of several inches. The deep sand bed develops anaerobic bacteria activity in the deeper parts of the sand bed. If I remember correctly, the bacteria turn nitrate into nitrogen gas, and this is what can be released if you disturb the deeper parts of the deep sand bed. You may not have the same issues if you have a fairly shallow sand bed.
kp33
Active Member
It’s deeper in some areas than others but my deepest is maybe 3 inches or so but other areas are not as deep.
wondering if before I do the sand change if I shouldn’t try to syphon the bed when I do water changes as I have never done that. Maybe that will help clean out crap trapped in the bed? IDK?
Stephen8169301
Valuable Member
Maybe check with a tds checker just to make sure? Maybe a silica test kit also.
How to change or completely rinse out a sandbed all at once using 300 tanks as examples
www.reef2reef.com
Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread
If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...
www.reef2reef.com
kp33
Active Member
The crazy part about all of this and while I appreciate all the suggestions these are things I have done to lower my phosphates to no avail, good cleaner crew, rowa phos in a reactor, less feeding, less lights, I’ve tried everything all have suggested except two things, syphon the bed or change it.
Do most agree that .16 is high and that’s what is causing my corals not to grow and spread like they should, most sites and my LFS says .16 is on the high side and could be a factor as to why the corals don’t grow like they should, if that’s not true then all of this talk is for not, meaning if .16 on average is not that high and not contributing to the lack of coral growth.
Do most agree that .16 is high and that’s what is causing my corals not to grow and spread like they should, most sites and my LFS says .16 is on the high side and could be a factor as to why the corals don’t grow like they should, if that’s not true then all of this talk is for not, meaning if .16 on average is not that high and not contributing to the lack of coral growth.
Stephen8169301
Valuable Member
Have you checked the tds in your fish stores water that you say is rodi that’s what I would do since you checked everything else
The sandbed isn't causing your coral issues
But as you can see, the advice to clean it in sections isn't safe, there's no fifty page thread handling them partially, that kills some people's whole tank. If you're going to do it do it right. The safe way shown is full tank disassembly
I don't think it will make your corals grow better at all, it's just the only safe way to handle truly deep old beds
Post a picture of your reef let's see it
But as you can see, the advice to clean it in sections isn't safe, there's no fifty page thread handling them partially, that kills some people's whole tank. If you're going to do it do it right. The safe way shown is full tank disassembly
I don't think it will make your corals grow better at all, it's just the only safe way to handle truly deep old beds
Post a picture of your reef let's see it
kp33
Active Member
Haven’t read the whole post yet, in a nutshell what’s the safe way to do the whole bed?
I understand the sand bed isn’t causing my coral issue but could it be the sand bed releasing phosphates into the water causing it to be high hence causing my coral issue?
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Handling sand that is aged is dangerous It's why we patterned out the thread with jobs to hone the approach. Before doing any work you'd need to study the jobs a while to get the pattern down for safety, all entrants are doing the same steps. Elevated phosphate isn't going to harm your corals its an algae problem if there's truly high phosphate. Threads on here exist to show tanks that specifically run high phosphate and still grow corals, plus we have old sandbed systems like subsea's that still grow coral.
There are benefits though to having a clean sandbed, it's why our thread is fifty pages of before and super clean after pics, or for using the method to upgrade tanks or move them to new homes
As a short summary, each system has to be taken apart, fish held in containers during the job, sand rinsed out (even if you use new sand it's rinsed) rocks are rinsed off and the system is put back all at once without using bottle bacteria: its a huge undertaking but all at once is the only safe way if you're determined to do the job. Partial sandbed work, sections at a time, isn't safe and is very very likely to cause a huge outbreak of some invasion
post pics of your tank so we can see details
There are benefits though to having a clean sandbed, it's why our thread is fifty pages of before and super clean after pics, or for using the method to upgrade tanks or move them to new homes
As a short summary, each system has to be taken apart, fish held in containers during the job, sand rinsed out (even if you use new sand it's rinsed) rocks are rinsed off and the system is put back all at once without using bottle bacteria: its a huge undertaking but all at once is the only safe way if you're determined to do the job. Partial sandbed work, sections at a time, isn't safe and is very very likely to cause a huge outbreak of some invasion
post pics of your tank so we can see details
That was a solid call earlier about not using di stage water prep. Things other than sand can be adjusted, but that doesn't mean most people with a sandbed this aged don't have problems. There's so much waste and irritant found in that detritus cloud that the majority of owners now decide to clean them out vs keep the waste any further. It's why bare bottom/ strong flow setups were made
When you feed heavy one particular weekend with a deep sandbed in place, a massive portion of the extra feed sinks into the sand and small animals that live in the rocks too (its where they seed from after we rinse sand) work on the added feed and break it down into the bed
Over and over for years, the system is on constant storage vs any evacuation
That stresses a biosystem over time and presents a finite lifespan; you can only store so much in a gut before it fails
But a bare bottom tanker could high feed one weekend, then their filter sock catches a bit more waste than usual, the actual display isn't filling up with anything. This is a very long lifespan, no limit in age ecosystem. The gut is able to throughput finally and it lives
I would not start partially cleaning a backed up aged sandbed. If you're agreeing to do incremental cleaning to avoid buildup, we'd rip clean it, then from the safe clean condition you start preventative small increment cleaning. We wouldn't start it from the aged condition, that's dangerous
Your corals can be brought into shape much better in a clean system using the right feed and the right ro di water for sure
Having a clean sandbed is very helpful even though that's a very hard job for large tankers to do. In the last few pages of the sand rinse thread several large tank owners still did the rinse, because they were moving tanks they had to deep dive them so we took time to de-age their systems. Study several link jobs there to completion to see the ordered steps
Sand is washed in tap water, always, for a reason
Rocks are washed in saltwater then it's all reassembled in an order that skip cycles your tank. It's a tank cleaning, not a reset. You're keeping your original cycle in place and we're not using bottle bac... that's a continuance vs a restart. We're doing it surgically, that's why for eight years it's all positive testimony
When you feed heavy one particular weekend with a deep sandbed in place, a massive portion of the extra feed sinks into the sand and small animals that live in the rocks too (its where they seed from after we rinse sand) work on the added feed and break it down into the bed
Over and over for years, the system is on constant storage vs any evacuation
That stresses a biosystem over time and presents a finite lifespan; you can only store so much in a gut before it fails
But a bare bottom tanker could high feed one weekend, then their filter sock catches a bit more waste than usual, the actual display isn't filling up with anything. This is a very long lifespan, no limit in age ecosystem. The gut is able to throughput finally and it lives
I would not start partially cleaning a backed up aged sandbed. If you're agreeing to do incremental cleaning to avoid buildup, we'd rip clean it, then from the safe clean condition you start preventative small increment cleaning. We wouldn't start it from the aged condition, that's dangerous
Your corals can be brought into shape much better in a clean system using the right feed and the right ro di water for sure
Having a clean sandbed is very helpful even though that's a very hard job for large tankers to do. In the last few pages of the sand rinse thread several large tank owners still did the rinse, because they were moving tanks they had to deep dive them so we took time to de-age their systems. Study several link jobs there to completion to see the ordered steps
Sand is washed in tap water, always, for a reason
Rocks are washed in saltwater then it's all reassembled in an order that skip cycles your tank. It's a tank cleaning, not a reset. You're keeping your original cycle in place and we're not using bottle bac... that's a continuance vs a restart. We're doing it surgically, that's why for eight years it's all positive testimony
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would also add: there's actual physical danger in handling large tank loads of live rock, hand pokes and scrapes. one person from the fish disease forum had to go to the er after so many pokes he was developing systemic sepsis due to a reaction no joke, you'll need protective gloves in my opinion.
its a huge cost for new water, you need to attain ro/di water if you can, if not and you must use ro only your tank will need remediation more often. / this is remedy #1 option
if I owned a large tank the water would be made by me using the multi stage filter/ro di setup to ensure quality, this much $$ over the long haul is worth it. depending on pics you may not need to rip clean right now, but the day is likely to come soon, true hands off sandbedding only rarely works, for the majority it causes tank problems/enter bare bottom setups to solve those problems.
I too use a really deep sandbed, I'm just willing to clean it out fully from time to time so it's no particular harm in my big feed weekends.
its a huge cost for new water, you need to attain ro/di water if you can, if not and you must use ro only your tank will need remediation more often. / this is remedy #1 option
if I owned a large tank the water would be made by me using the multi stage filter/ro di setup to ensure quality, this much $$ over the long haul is worth it. depending on pics you may not need to rip clean right now, but the day is likely to come soon, true hands off sandbedding only rarely works, for the majority it causes tank problems/enter bare bottom setups to solve those problems.
I too use a really deep sandbed, I'm just willing to clean it out fully from time to time so it's no particular harm in my big feed weekends.
I can't attribute phosphate as the cause though, it doesn't matter if it's high in your display. check this thread out:
www.reef2reef.com
high phosphate in reef tanks where corals grow solidly
the sandbed cleaning is for the long term game, invasion prevention, and irritation removal/I can't rule out that irritants other than phosphate aren't at work-clean condition reefs can be fed better for sure and not have the resulting waste mess compounding. if you want to do the job we sure can engineer the build here for a skip cycle
it will be the largest job you'd undertake on this tank for sure, but the benefits are high for sure. just the sand rinsing portion given this much age would take 6 hours no joke.
I'm amazed that the 90's trained us to store up waste to this degree in reefing, we were told that sandbeds reduce all their waste to minerals / inert materials but indeed they create nutrient sinks that require surgery to keep the tank alive, in some cases.
a bare bottom tank simply never endures this condition of storage, nor any risks.
Rich Ross - Home Tank - guess the phosphate
This tank was built before r2r, here is a link to some links about the build. http://packedhead.net/home-reef/ Current test results: 03-17-2017 Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L 03-17-2017 Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.006 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L 03-17-2017 Phosphate...
www.reef2reef.com
the sandbed cleaning is for the long term game, invasion prevention, and irritation removal/I can't rule out that irritants other than phosphate aren't at work-clean condition reefs can be fed better for sure and not have the resulting waste mess compounding. if you want to do the job we sure can engineer the build here for a skip cycle
it will be the largest job you'd undertake on this tank for sure, but the benefits are high for sure. just the sand rinsing portion given this much age would take 6 hours no joke.
I'm amazed that the 90's trained us to store up waste to this degree in reefing, we were told that sandbeds reduce all their waste to minerals / inert materials but indeed they create nutrient sinks that require surgery to keep the tank alive, in some cases.
a bare bottom tank simply never endures this condition of storage, nor any risks.
Once the sandbed is clean/ replaced/ look at this prevention method used so you don't have to take it apart again
www.reef2reef.com
* to use that method from the pre rip clean sandbed is dangerous. Too much waste risk
But to use it in a ripped clean tank as prevention is solid, that lets you keep your dsb without it backing up in the future
" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "
I've always talked about this in the fb groups because i get so many questions and compliments on my sand bed ....well here's my method....note: I've never tried this on a tank older than 3 years !!!! I'm well aware of the problems that can occur on older tanks...this is a "DAILY" method i use...
www.reef2reef.com
But to use it in a ripped clean tank as prevention is solid, that lets you keep your dsb without it backing up in the future
John Bolden
Valuable Member
Had a LFS suggest that solely on that he likes bare bottom and said he would do it in half an hour. Now 2 things wrong with that 1 my sand is in my rocks and he would have to rip my tank apart to get it all 2 that would blow up my tank. I told him this and he still said he wanted to do this he said that he can hold my corals in his tanks (which were covered in algea and aptasia). Let's just say I dont go there anymore.
Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread
If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...
www.reef2reef.com
there's 300 tanks doing the method without the losses, there's a controlled method. People are keen to get rid of nutrient traps these days, that's how to do it perfectly safe using no testing, no cycling, and no new bottle bacteria. we do jobs there every week/pick 4-5 jobs at the end to study and copy perfectly.
once your sandbed is rinsed clean/ or replaced fully, use this method to avoid building up again:
" MY WHITE SAND METHOD "
I've always talked about this in the fb groups because i get so many questions and compliments on my sand bed ....well here's my method....note: I've never tried this on a tank older than 3 years !!!! I'm well aware of the problems that can occur on older tanks...this is a "DAILY" method i use...
www.reef2reef.com
for example, in the patterns on file for the sand rinse tanks we never run the same % lighting intensity on the new tank, it is ran in acclimation mode, and the light power slowly creeps back up over time. that's an important guiding step for coral bleach prevention in the new tank.
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