Sand sifting star died.

[Ty Hamatake]

I have to say that I HIGHLY doubt it burned through the fauna and starved. Possibly it was unhealthy and by the time it got to my tank it was already on the way out and it had no energy left to hunt for food... Possibly the depth of my sandbed was an issue. This tank is crawling with critters. As I was looking at him not moving I could physically see pods crawling on the sand near him and the rocks. There is a bit of algae possibly cyano on the sand etc.... The weird thing is it seemed that he went to the only spot where the fish had removed the sand (they seem to clear the sand in this spot because they go in and out of the rock crevasse constantly and it moves the sand) the tank has probably 1.5" to 2.5" of sand in some spots so maybe that accounts for the issue. I have a few nasso snails but they seem to do a crap job of stirring the sand. I see bubbles and algae build up on the sand bed and it doesnt seem to ever get stirred. Maybe I need more of them. They are alive I see them surface when I feed.
From LFS (through drip acclimation and temperature acclimation) to being set on the sand in my tank probably 2 hours maybe a bit longer but not more than 3 hours. The tank it came from had several of these stars and is probably a 40gallon breeder. Has tons of snails crabs and some nems and a shallow sandbed probably 1.5" at max. This lfs keeps them in a invert type tank with just a bunch of their cleanup crew and a few nems so its possible that there was nothing for it to eat and the stress of the transfer caused it to kick the bucket. Good question on how long at the shop I havent the faintest idea on that one. Several other sifters for sure in the same tank.
Again though I have to insist that there is no way it cleaned out the fauna in my tank. I do feed fairly heavily but I didnt attempt to feed the star, would have had I thought it was necessary.

If you'd like to see possibly you can in my youtube video the sandbed. I wouldnt say its too shallow.
Its too bad that it didnt make it I hate being the cause of somethings demise in my tank thats mainly why I'm trying to learn why. I would like something that would sift the sand well and currently dont have a top on my tank so a jawfish probably wouldnt work for now. Guess I'll add some more sand sifting snails.
Heres the video I mentioned if you want to see. Even from the video's thumbnail you can tell its not super shallow...

I do appreciate the comments and everyone's help.

Very interesting. I guess I should've done some research on your tank, because it is nothing what I expected. Plenty of space, plenty of sand. You may have honestly just gotten a star that was already on its way out! You may want to try another star, or if you're looking for sand stirring snail, a fighting conch is a good way to go (though I did lose one to my stupid hermit crabs ). I also have a good head sleeper goby who does a great job of keeping the top of the sand clean, but be warned you'll be cleaning sand off of every surface! Lol he does well until someone spooks him while he got a mouth full of sand. Then it's up to the top of the tank followed by a big sifted sand air drop!

 

[DSC reef]

I have to say that I HIGHLY doubt it burned through the fauna and starved. Possibly it was unhealthy and by the time it got to my tank it was already on the way out and it had no energy left to hunt for food... Possibly the depth of my sandbed was an issue. This tank is crawling with critters. As I was looking at him not moving I could physically see pods crawling on the sand near him and the rocks. There is a bit of algae possibly cyano on the sand etc.... The weird thing is it seemed that he went to the only spot where the fish had removed the sand (they seem to clear the sand in this spot because they go in and out of the rock crevasse constantly and it moves the sand) the tank has probably 1.5" to 2.5" of sand in some spots so maybe that accounts for the issue. I have a few nasso snails but they seem to do a crap job of stirring the sand. I see bubbles and algae build up on the sand bed and it doesnt seem to ever get stirred. Maybe I need more of them. They are alive I see them surface when I feed.
From LFS (through drip acclimation and temperature acclimation) to being set on the sand in my tank probably 2 hours maybe a bit longer but not more than 3 hours. The tank it came from had several of these stars and is probably a 40gallon breeder. Has tons of snails crabs and some nems and a shallow sandbed probably 1.5" at max. This lfs keeps them in a invert type tank with just a bunch of their cleanup crew and a few nems so its possible that there was nothing for it to eat and the stress of the transfer caused it to kick the bucket. Good question on how long at the shop I havent the faintest idea on that one. Several other sifters for sure in the same tank.
Again though I have to insist that there is no way it cleaned out the fauna in my tank. I do feed fairly heavily but I didnt attempt to feed the star, would have had I thought it was necessary.

If you'd like to see possibly you can in my youtube video the sandbed. I wouldnt say its too shallow.
Its too bad that it didnt make it I hate being the cause of somethings demise in my tank thats mainly why I'm trying to learn why. I would like something that would sift the sand well and currently dont have a top on my tank so a jawfish probably wouldnt work for now. Guess I'll add some more sand sifting snails.
Heres the video I mentioned if you want to see. Even from the video's thumbnail you can tell its not super shallow...

I do appreciate the comments and everyone's help.

I guarantee you didn't have the fauna necessary to feed it correctly is what I was saying. I'd strongly suggest you pass on this animal. I've kept many and if there requirements can't be met then you shouldn't keep them. Your tank is to young IMO. A couple snails and good old fashioned maintenance will go a long way at keeping a sand bed clean.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

I guarantee you didn't have the fauna necessary to feed it correctly is what I was saying. I'd strongly suggest you pass on this animal. I've kept many and if there requirements can't be met then you shouldn't keep them. Your tank is to young IMO. A couple snails and good old fashioned maintenance will go a long way at keeping a sand bed clean.

I feed BRS reef chili, quite heavily, a few times a week. Do you think this is supplementing my star's diet. I was under the impression that if there is sufficient quantity, a star can thrive off of detritus and leftover food. In your experience, do they need the micro fauna as well?

 

[DSC reef]

I feed BRS reef chili, quite heavily, a few times a week. Do you think this is supplementing my star's diet. I was under the impression that if there is sufficient quantity, a star can thrive off of detritus and leftover food. In your experience, do they need the micro fauna as well?

I could never keep one alive longer than 2 years no matter the depth of sand or the bio load. I'll never buy another and haven't in years since I run bare bottom. IME artificial food can't replace the fauna in the sand bed. Just going off my experience ofcourse.

 

[Roy 9121]

The star might not have starved to death in just a few days, but still may have starved to death.

How long was it in transit? How long did it sit in an empty tank at the wholesalers'? How long was it in the shop where it was purchased? With how many other sandsifters?

Sandsifters, as mentioned above, have a tendency to clean out their larders and then begin a steady decline.

~Bruce

I would still think that would have taken more then just a few days, but I guess its possible.

 

[rkpetersen]

I don't know, in addition to the 'exposed to air' issue, I've found that stars in general can be ridiculously sensitive to changes in conditions between tanks and during transportation. Fromia tile stars seem to be the worst which sucks because they're so beautiful. A 45 minute acclimation might not have been enough, I now acclimate stars by drip for a solid two hours, with the open bag floating in the sump, and it seems that they do better. I'm with you OP, I don't believe for a second that this star just suddenly died of starvation a couple of days after you got it home (and it wasn't doing well in your tank even before it died); that timeline says to me that it suffered some acute stress and acclimation stress is the obvious and probably correct answer.

Also, a handful of nassarius aren't going to do squat in a tank that size. You could start with maybe 30 of the large Tonga Nassarius and see how that goes. The standard Nassarius vibex snails are so small you'd need a 100+ of them to do anything meaningful as far as keeping your sand mixed.

 

[PAXpress]

Very interesting. I guess I should've done some research on your tank, because it is nothing what I expected. Plenty of space, plenty of sand. You may have honestly just gotten a star that was already on its way out! You may want to try another star, or if you're looking for sand stirring snail, a fighting conch is a good way to go (though I did lose one to my stupid hermit crabs ). I also have a good head sleeper goby who does a great job of keeping the top of the sand clean, but be warned you'll be cleaning sand off of every surface! Lol he does well until someone spooks him while he got a mouth full of sand. Then it's up to the top of the tank followed by a big sifted sand air drop!

I'm afraid something like a goby may jump and really dont want dried goby on my floor... Not sure I like the sound of a conch either but I'll do a bit more research thanks! I dont think I'll be trying another star at least for a long time and even then I will take great procautions to ensure proper acclimation and feeding.

I guarantee you didn't have the fauna necessary to feed it correctly is what I was saying. I'd strongly suggest you pass on this animal. I've kept many and if there requirements can't be met then you shouldn't keep them. Your tank is to young IMO. A couple snails and good old fashioned maintenance will go a long way at keeping a sand bed clean.

So with a 2year old + tank (literally all of the rock sand and some water moved with when I moved the tank, possibly some were lost but I highly doubt all...) that has no critter eaters, heavy feeding and a dedicated refugium loaded with rock rubble pods and chaeto/other algaes you dont think the fauna is good? I guess I'll agree to disagree with you. I have trouble siphoning the sand due to the size of tank and the amount of frags currently in the sand. I'll probably add more snails if I can get some healthy looking ones soon and I'll continue to stir the sand and siphon as much as possible during water changes. Thanks for the advice.

I feed BRS reef chili, quite heavily, a few times a week. Do you think this is supplementing my star's diet. I was under the impression that if there is sufficient quantity, a star can thrive off of detritus and leftover food. In your experience, do they need the micro fauna as well?

I feed Reef chili several types of frozen foods, phytofeast and nori nearly daily (some days are missed, life beckons...) I'd say do what you can to keep him healthy maybe even add some pods occasionally? Then again if I had success with mine I wouldn't be posting this here today haha.

I don't know, in addition to the 'exposed to air' issue, I've found that stars in general can be ridiculously sensitive to changes in conditions between tanks and during transportation. Fromia tile stars seem to be the worst which sucks because they're so beautiful. A 45 minute acclimation might not have been enough, I now acclimate stars by drip for a solid two hours, with the open bag floating in the sump, and it seems that they do better. I'm with you OP, I don't believe for a second that this star just suddenly died of starvation a couple of days after you got it home (and it wasn't doing well in your tank even before it died); that timeline says to me that it suffered some acute stress and acclimation stress is the obvious and probably correct answer.

Also, a handful of nassarius aren't going to do squat in a tank that size. You could start with maybe 30 of the large Tonga Nassarius and see how that goes. The standard Nassarius vibex snails are so small you'd need a 100+ of them to do anything meaningful as far as keeping your sand mixed.

I'll see if I can find some locally. Ya I think I maybe have 8 or less of the nassarius vibex... I'll have to be more diligent with sifting the sand and siphoning when possible during water changes. Glad someone agrees with my hypothesis.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

Just out of curiosity, why are you wary of getting a conch? They don't actually fight

 

[Roy 9121]

Just out of curiosity, why are you wary of getting a conch? They don't actually fight

Aren't some conch's poisonous? Eat coral?

 

[Maritimer]

Fighting conchs are neither of those things.

They've got an elephant-like schnozzle with their radula in it that they reach out with to rasp algae. They're gentle about coral, and if they're anything like their bigger sister the queen conch, they're not only non-poisonous, they're positively delicious. (I think my hallow'een hermit would agree...) (T_T)

~Bruce

 

[Roy 9121]

Fighting conchs are neither of those things.

They've got an elephant-like schnozzle with their radula in it that they reach out with to rasp algae. They're gentle about coral, and if they're anything like their bigger sister the queen conch, they're not only non-poisonous, they're positively delicious. (I think my hallow'een hermit would agree...) (T_T)

~Bruce

I must be thinking of something else, sorry.

 

[Maritimer]

No worries!

Perhaps you were thinking of cone shells?

They're mostly from the Pacific, though I think there are some in the Atlantic as well, and they're highly venomous. Lethally, in some cases.

And they do kind of look a bit like fighting conchs.

~Bruce

 

[Philt56]

Not sure if pods are really a food source for starfish? Maybe more dead matter? Not sure they could even catch moving pods?

 

[djreef]

Sand sifting stars are a waste of time. They don’t ship well, and most disolve in the bag from the source. If we order ten we might expect 4 to be alive when they show up, and those wouldn’t last 3 days even when acclimated for hours. We refuse to carry them anymore as a result of their high mortality.

DJ

 

[PAXpress]

Just out of curiosity, why are you wary of getting a conch? They don't actually fight

Haha Good to know they dont fight, I'm not much of a fighter! Well honestly probably more lack of knowledge about them. Would I have to worry about them tipping over frags? Do they burrow and stir the sand or just glide on top and eat algae? How big do they get? I'm not opposed to one just hate getting something and having it not do well or not serve the purpose I'd intended.

Sand sifting stars are a waste of time. They don’t ship well, and most disolve in the bag from the source. If we order ten we might expect 4 to be alive when they show up, and those wouldn’t last 3 days even when acclimated for hours. We refuse to carry them anymore as a result of their high mortality.

DJ

Interesting. Yea I dont think I'll be getting one again. Looking for something that will stir the sandbed and be reefsafe and survive in my tank. I got a brittle star this weekend he wont stir thats for sure but he can eat some detritus.

 

[Maritimer]

They do relatively little actual sifting or burrowing, though they do sleep under the sand. They kind of bump themselves along, rather than gliding - and grow to maybe three or four inches.

~Bruce, only a little experience with conchs

 

[keddre]

They do relatively little actual sifting or burrowing, though they do sleep under the sand. They kind of bump themselves along, rather than gliding - and grow to maybe three or four inches.

~Bruce, only a little experience with conchs

I second this. Mine sits just under the sand and does nothing for the turnover. Maybe it's because I don't siphon so he can get a bunch of food in one good spot, but mine will go days before actually moving again. Though they are still entertaining to watch

Also, acclimation could (emphasis on could) be a problem. The reason I say that is because stars are sensitive from the start so if there was a big salinity, oxygen, etc. difference between your tank and the lfs, 45 mins of a drip may not have been enough.

Lastly, you don't happen to be dosing any copper do you?

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Just following on the thread, I thought I could contribute some useful info...
Check this: I'm in the Philippines and I wild-caught my stars.
- Starfish should definitely not be exposed to air (like fromia and linkia) but serpentine stars/brittle stars/sand sifting stars, like the one in the YT vid, live in tide pools. The are exposed to air every day when the tide goes out. So exposing them to air is not an issue. There are so many stars on the rocks that in some places, it's almost impossible to put your food down without stepping on one.

- They are extremely hardy and tolerant of salinity changes, temperature changes, and water quality swings. Yes, because when it rains on the tide pool? How about the typhoon we had last week? They don't all die, right? And the sun is very hot here, at the equator and the little water that is in the tide pool gets very hot but still, they don't die. Drip acclimating them for 45 mins is perfect.

- Your sandbed depth is okay but could be a little deeper or maybe a little more evenly spread. (but it's okay as is) The only comment I would make is that your sand might need to be a little coarser at the bottom. I saw your flow in your tank and I think it's fine. My opinion would be you try another serpentine star. For mine, I have a palm sized live rock sitting on the surface of the sandbed. The stars park themselves between the underside of the rock and the surface of the sandbed and do not really move around much from under the protection of the rock, they basically stay there with their body under the rock and their tentacles out in the open to feed. If you were expecting them to roam around underneath the sandbed all through your substrate, they won't do that. They need a rock. I saw you have more than enough live rock in your tank as potential homes but for the serpentine stars to make a home, the rock can't be directly on the glass. They need to be able to sandwich themselves between the underside of the rock and the surface of the sand.

- As I understand the serpentine stars feed in two ways. They feed on very small particles moving in the water column, which they catch by waving their arms. They can also eat/scavenge pieces of food. So the way I manage is I have a rock (or coral) that is on the sand that they live under. I took only adults, slightly smaller then the size of my hand. This way, know they're there because I can see their arms sticking out. They pretty much react like nassarius snails in that they react when they smell food fed in the tank. That reaction will tell you that they are healthy and eating. I target feed every other day or every third day. So set up a place for them on the sand and they will keep that area clean.

I have one in each corner of the tank.

I also think it' s not your fault that your star died. Nothing to do with your care. It was probably already at death's door when you got it, so don't worry about that.

If you have more questions just ask and I will try to answer if I know.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Another solution I used to keep my sandbed clean is macroalgae grasses.

 

[PAXpress]

I second this. Mine sits just under the sand and does nothing for the turnover. Maybe it's because I don't siphon so he can get a bunch of food in one good spot, but mine will go days before actually moving again. Though they are still entertaining to watch

Also, acclimation could (emphasis on could) be a problem. The reason I say that is because stars are sensitive from the start so if there was a big salinity, oxygen, etc. difference between your tank and the lfs, 45 mins of a drip may not have been enough.

Lastly, you don't happen to be dosing any copper do you?

No copper, ever. Also whenever I get fish from the store I keep none of their original water because I know that some fish stores use copper to treat fish even if they aren't sick... Guess this will be an unsolved mystery for me...

Just following on the thread, I thought I could contribute some useful info...
Check this: I'm in the Philippines and I wild-caught my stars.
- Starfish should definitely not be exposed to air (like fromia and linkia) but serpentine stars/brittle stars/sand sifting stars, like the one in the YT vid, live in tide pools. The are exposed to air every day when the tide goes out. So exposing them to air is not an issue. There are so many stars on the rocks that in some places, it's almost impossible to put your food down without stepping on one.

- They are extremely hardy and tolerant of salinity changes, temperature changes, and water quality swings. Yes, because when it rains on the tide pool? How about the typhoon we had last week? They don't all die, right? And the sun is very hot here, at the equator and the little water that is in the tide pool gets very hot but still, they don't die. Drip acclimating them for 45 mins is perfect.

- Your sandbed depth is okay but could be a little deeper or maybe a little more evenly spread. (but it's okay as is) The only comment I would make is that your sand might need to be a little coarser at the bottom. I saw your flow in your tank and I think it's fine. My opinion would be you try another serpentine star. For mine, I have a palm sized live rock sitting on the surface of the sandbed. The stars park themselves between the underside of the rock and the surface of the sandbed and do not really move around much from under the protection of the rock, they basically stay there with their body under the rock and their tentacles out in the open to feed. If you were expecting them to roam around underneath the sandbed all through your substrate, they won't do that. They need a rock. I saw you have more than enough live rock in your tank as potential homes but for the serpentine stars to make a home, the rock can't be directly on the glass. They need to be able to sandwich themselves between the underside of the rock and the surface of the sand.

- As I understand the serpentine stars feed in two ways. They feed on very small particles moving in the water column, which they catch by waving their arms. They can also eat/scavenge pieces of food. So the way I manage is I have a rock (or coral) that is on the sand that they live under. I took only adults, slightly smaller then the size of my hand. This way, know they're there because I can see their arms sticking out. They pretty much react like nassarius snails in that they react when they smell food fed in the tank. That reaction will tell you that they are healthy and eating. I target feed every other day or every third day. So set up a place for them on the sand and they will keep that area clean.

I have one in each corner of the tank.

I also think it' s not your fault that your star died. Nothing to do with your care. It was probably already at death's door when you got it, so don't worry about that.

If you have more questions just ask and I will try to answer if I know.

I haven't ever had a serpent star(unless thats what my brittle star is?), it does seem cool though! I appreciate the info. I was hoping that the sifting star would stir up the sand a bit its too bad he didn't make it. The star I added looks kinda like this I found that image online from memory so I'm not certain but it does look alot like that.

Another solution I used to keep my sandbed clean is macroalgae grasses.

Maybe for my fuge but I'm not sure I'd like the way that would look in my tank plus wouldn't the tangs pull them out of the sand?