Scratching

[Daniel225]

Any professionals think this is scrachting

He's already done 30 days in copper and currently day 4 of anti fluke & deworm meds its a bit weird how he only goes up in that corner and on the left side

Suggestions?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

What fluke medication are you using?

That isn't what I would call scratching/flashing, I call that "glass surfing". It is more a reaction to stress, a reaction to the fish's own reflection, or it is a learned stereotypic behavior.

We have a longnose butterflyfish that has the latter - it swims up the glass, across the tank upside down, swims down, turns upright and does the whole round trip again....it's been doing that for years.

Jay

 

[Daniel225]

What fluke medication are you using?

That isn't what I would call scratching/flashing, I call that "glass surfing". It is more a reaction to stress, a reaction to the fish's own reflection, or it is a learned stereotypic behavior.

We have a longnose butterflyfish that has the latter - it swims up the glass, across the tank upside down, swims down, turns upright and does the whole round trip again....it's been doing that for years.

Jay

That's a relief was hoping the QT clock would be reset

I was worried he was using what he has to scratch as the QT has noting course to scratch on would it be common behivour if it was parasites to not stay in the same corner and would be likely both sides getting scratched?

Saying that a FW dip wouldn't hurt anyway might be worth doing later today and see if anything falls off

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

That's a relief was hoping the QT clock would be reset

I was worried he was using what he has to scratch as the QT has noting course to scratch on would it be common behivour if it was parasites to not stay in the same corner and would be likely both sides getting scratched?

Saying that a FW dip wouldn't hurt anyway might be worth doing later today and see if anything falls off

FW dips can be risky, I don't see any benefit in doing that. Those dips only show one species of fluke, Neobendenia. The other flukes species are too small to see with the naked eye, you need a microscope to see them in the dip water.

Jay

 

[brwaldbaum]

FW dips can be risky, I don't see any benefit in doing that. Those dips only show one species of fluke, Neobendenia. The other flukes species are too small to see with the naked eye, you need a microscope to see them in the dip water.

Jay

I once gave a freshwater dip to a newly acquired C. loricula. Within a few minutes, countless white specks could be seen streaming from its gills. It resembled a shaken snow globe. Once settled to the bottom, the specks were much smaller and dissimilar in appearance to Neobenedenia.

If gill flukes are too small to be seen with the naked eye, what were those specks?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I once gave a freshwater dip to a newly acquired C. loricula. Within a few minutes, countless white specks could be seen streaming from its gills. It resembled a shaken snow globe. Once settled to the bottom, the specks were much smaller and dissimilar in appearance to Neobenedenia.

If gill flukes are too small to be seen with the naked eye, what were those specks?

Mucus coming off the gills, or you have REALLY good eyesight (grin). Even with a microscope, Gyrodactylus flukes look like little tiny balls of snot. In fact, we either use formalin dips or gill biopsies to really identify these flukes....

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Agree with Jay - however there are 5000 reasons for scratching. this does appear to be reacting to stress. Until that is done. I would not introduce the fish into a non QT ENVIRON

From your post I would say 'did you make sure the copper levels were appropriate'?

 

[MnFish1]

What fluke medication are you using?

That isn't what I would call scratching/flashing, I call that "glass surfing". It is more a reaction to stress, a reaction to the fish's own reflection, or it is a learned stereotypic behavior.

We have a longnose butterflyfish that has the latter - it swims up the glass, across the tank upside down, swims down, turns upright and does the whole round trip again....it's been doing that for years.

Jay

imho - that could be something else

 

[Daniel225]

Agree with Jay - however there are 5000 reasons for scratching. this does appear to be reacting to stress. Until that is done. I would not introduce the fish into a non QT ENVIRON

From your post I would say 'did you make sure the copper levels were appropriate'?

As far as im aware using a salifert test kit would it be beneficial to run the copper for another 30 days ? He's still doing it

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

As far as im aware using a salifert test kit would it be beneficial to run the copper for another 30 days ? He's still doing it

Extending the copper another 30 days would not help with this, and might cause toxicity problems, Centropyge angelfish are a bit sensitive to copper.

I had asked, what fluke/de-worm medication did you use, How did you dose it? I didn't see your response....

Jay

 

[Daniel225]

Extending the copper another 30 days would not help with this, and might cause toxicity problems, Centropyge angelfish are a bit sensitive to copper.

I had asked, what fluke/de-worm medication did you use, How did you dose it? I didn't see your response....

Jay

It’s by NT LABS it isn’t as popular as the US alternatives but im pretty restricted in the UK in terms of meds for QT it says on the box it contains flubendazole and to dose 2ml for every 50L straight into the water for a 7 day treatment then repeat if necessary

its says on the box it treats - skin and gill flukes,internal and eye worms

 

[Daniel225]

It’s my first QT after Ich or velvet in DT but my aim is

nt labs anti-parasite (copper sulphate & formaldehyde) 30 days
nt labs anti-fluke & wormer (flubendazole) 14 days

then I got nt labs anti-bacterial for sort of a medicated dip if anything goes wrong (Acriflavine, aminoacridine HCI & formaldehyde)

I figured I have covered most bases with this? I also done a FW dip in the first week

I tried reaching out to NT labs via email & support but they don’t seem very helpful and my questions have just gone unanswered

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

It’s my first QT after Ich or velvet in DT but my aim is

nt labs anti-parasite (copper sulphate & formaldehyde) 30 days
nt labs anti-fluke & wormer (flubendazole) 14 days

then I got nt labs anti-bacterial for sort of a medicated dip if anything goes wrong (Acriflavine, aminoacridine HCI & formaldehyde)

I figured I have covered most bases with this? I also done a FW dip in the first week

I tried reaching out to NT labs via email & support but they don’t seem very helpful and my questions have just gone unanswered

I'm pretty sure the NT labs copper is an ionic form. That can be more toxic to fish than chelated amine copper products like coppersafe and copper power. I would not dose the NT labs product longer than 3 weeks if it is an ionic formulation.

Jay

 

[Daniel225]

I'm pretty sure the NT labs copper is an ionic form. That can be more toxic to fish than chelated amine copper products like coppersafe and copper power. I would not dose the NT labs product longer than 3 weeks if it is an ionic formulation.

Jay

Not sure what copper it is only says it contains copper sulphate will 3 weeks be sufficient to kill Ich / velvet etc?

what are the effects it has on a fish if left in for 30days at 0.2 level?

I know it been asked a million times but what UK products do you recommend?

i Really want copperpower but it’s cost $45 for just a 8oz bottle
compared to NT LABS $10 and you can buy it at most LFS

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Not sure what copper it is only says it contains copper sulphate will 3 weeks be sufficient to kill Ich / velvet etc?

what are the effects it has on a fish if left in for 30days at 0.2 level?

I know it been asked a million times but what UK products do you recommend?

i Really want copperpower but it’s cost $45 for just a 8oz bottle
compared to NT LABS $10 and you can buy it at most LFS

Based on the dose you are using, that is an ionic copper. These can be toxic to some species of fish (pygmy angels for example) and can easily be overdosed if you don't test carefully.

Do the instructions have you test and do partial redoses?

There are not a lot of good alternatives in the UK.

Jay

 

[Daniel225]

Based on the dose you are using, that is an ionic copper. These can be toxic to some species of fish (pygmy angels for example) and can easily be overdosed if you don't test carefully.

Do the instructions have you test and do partial redoses?

There are not a lot of good alternatives in the UK.

Jay

The instructions are horrible it states noting about what level to dose it's more along the lines
day 1 - dose 1ml to every 50L
Day 2 - dose 1ml to every 30L
Day 3 …. Blah blah blah

Over the course of 11 days but obviously that isn't going to work in killing velvet & ich

I will get a picture of the instructions later today i just wish I could get sone decent copper products

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

The instructions are horrible it states noting about what level to dose it's more along the lines
day 1 - dose 1ml to every 50L
Day 2 - dose 1ml to every 30L
Day 3 …. Blah blah blah

Over the course of 11 days but obviously that isn't going to work in killing velvet & ich

I will get a picture of the instructions later today i just wish I could get sone decent copper products

Whoa - they really cannot dose ionic copper blindly like that. You need to test at least daily. Back when I used ionic copper, I would test 2x a day, using a Hach spectrophotometer, and even then I had difficulty keeping the dose consistent.

My guess here, is that their product has a low dose of copper in it, and they are relying on daily formalin additions in the medication to actually cure the fish (low dose copper is safe but ineffectual).

Jay

 

[Daniel225]

I

Based on the dose you are using, that is an ionic copper. These can be toxic to some species of fish (pygmy angels for example) and can easily be overdosed if you don't test carefully.

Do the instructions have you test and do partial redoses?

There are not a lot of good alternatives in the UK.

Jay

I have sourced some cupramine after calling a few LFS he has a bulk container shipped from the US and measures it out so i got 250L for £20 thats on par price wise with NT LABS only downside i wont have any instructions as its a plain bottle but plenty of information on here so shouldn't be a problem as for the fluke meds I'm going to stick with NT labs it seems to have treated the angel with no ill effects

 

[Daniel225]

Whoa - they really cannot dose ionic copper blindly like that. You need to test at least daily. Back when I used ionic copper, I would test 2x a day, using a Hach spectrophotometer, and even then I had difficulty keeping the dose consistent.

My guess here, is that their product has a low dose of copper in it, and they are relying on daily formalin additions in the medication to actually cure the fish (low dose copper is safe but ineffectual).

Jay

That’s exactly the case i found a old post on here when looking yesterday apparently the copper is so low that its the formaldehyde that gets to a toxic level way before copper thats why they dose it daily for 11 days rather than reach therapeutic copper levels that would explain what killed my purple tang as i took it to 0.2ppm and disregarded the formaldehyde