Seahorse tank flow

[Weasel1960]

Looking for some clear advice on determining flow in a peaceful tank with h. Erectus some softies and other fish.

Is the goal of 20%-25% flow strictly what goes thru the sump or does some of that flow get proportioned to the power heads?

If that is strictly bio turnover what should I be considering for tank circulation?

 

[Llyod276]

If your running a seahorse tank, I've read minimal flow so no powerheads wavemaker ot anykind of turbulence. If it's not a huge tank just get a hang on back filter pref dc and dial it way back. Also says slow eaters so strong flow = more prey gets away. If it's a large tank the plumb the return line to be long and full of holes tondiffuse the return water pressure. I would imagine a sump us dang near neccessary, cause the gas exchange should happen down there not in the tank, via skimmer.
Also depends on what type of filtration your doing. Think about it this way: in any system contact time means removal of undesirable nutrients. More time more removal. So if your using live algea and bioballs , then slow is good. If no algea then maybe a bit faster so more water hits bacteria. Reactors are a must.
Best solution is diffusion of return pump energy. If you can create a slight sway that's good: still/standing works too. But that's really hard to achieve. Also consider having pods and other slow gentle fish. Mandarins?

 

[Weasel1960]

If your running a seahorse tank, I've read minimal flow so no powerheads wavemaker ot anykind of turbulence. If it's not a huge tank just get a hang on back filter pref dc and dial it way back. Also says slow eaters so strong flow = more prey gets away. If it's a large tank the plumb the return line to be long and full of holes tondiffuse the return water pressure. I would imagine a sump us dang near neccessary, cause the gas exchange should happen down there not in the tank, via skimmer.
Also depends on what type of filtration your doing. Think about it this way: in any system contact time means removal of undesirable nutrients. More time more removal. So if your using live algea and bioballs , then slow is good. If no algea then maybe a bit faster so more water hits bacteria. Reactors are a must.
Best solution is diffusion of return pump energy. If you can create a slight sway that's good: still/standing works too. But that's really hard to achieve. Also consider having pods and other slow gentle fish. Mandarins?

Thanks for the feedback, just starting to plan this out.

 

[rayjay]

IGNORE ANY POSTINGS THAT ADVISE OF "MINIMAL" or "LOW FLOW" for seahorse tanks. That advice is so ancient that it was on the way out when I started back in 2002.
Most of my seahorse tanks have been in the 20X range, with intent to keep detritus in suspension longer in order to get picked up by the mechanical filtration. The main consideration is to be sure there are no direct blasts to blow a seahorse against something and damage it. Arrange best you can to maximize detritus retrieval. There are always going to be varying degrees of flow in areas of the tank and be sure there is hitching available suitable for the seahorses to choose if they prefer at any time, high, medium or low flow. Personally I'd NEVER go below 10X but 20X or more works much better. Reactors are NOT a must.
I see many times people saying gas exchange is better in the skimmers. In fact, proper surface area with good motion works much better.
Skimmers produce tiny bubbles with great surface area but do far less for gas exchange because IF the skimmer is dialed in right, the bubbles QUICKLY become coated with the dissolved organics they are designed for and this block any gas exchange. The output flow of the skimmer will likely do more for exchange than the bubbles as the outlet flow will promote some surface agitation.
Skimmers are really almost necessary just for the benefit of removing dissolved organics that so often lead to the demise of our seahorses because there are NO test kits available to the hobbyist to be able to tell us when it is happening, and all other tests we may have show excellent.


NOW, if one REALLY wants to investigate the seahorse keeping hobby, there are countless posts in the stickies at the top of this forum where you can get started. You can also search out the youtube videos from Wine Wednesday with the Whisperer.
For more direct reading with less misleading information than posts, go to Facebook groups like Seahorse Source's Group and click on "FILES" for extensive information on most fields of the hobby. Other groups like Seahorses - Help and Advice, and Seahorse keeping made fun, go to the "MORE" link and then click on "FILES".

 

[Llyod276]

Dude rayjay, what are you recommending this guy to turn his seahorse farm into Cape Horn? 20x turnover? Please.
Maybe turn on the discovery channel and see a seahorse habitat. If your weeds(macro) is sideways then what's the poor bugger got to grab onto?
Golly think of the noise alone! Large amounts of moving water are never quiet.
Secondly ever heard of a gravel vaccum? Bye bye detritus, I mean gotta do a water change any way...

As for outdated check this, the earth IS flat. And Pluto is still a planet. King Arthur will come and save Britain from Brexit.

 

[rayjay]

Seahorses live in a WIDE variety of habit in nature and what you have probably SEEN on Discovery is NOT all there is to seahorses and where/how they live.
I have never seen seahorses in the wild but am in my nineteenth year of seahorse keeping in tanks and tank conditions don't need to replicate ALL variants of habit but have special needs that seahorses in the wild don't have to worry about.
The MOST important thing about seahorse keeping is WATER QUALITY. Seahorses are extremely susceptible to bacterial problems that occur because they are in a captive tank instead of always having changing water conditions.
Keeping the water clean then is a major consideration of which flow, direction and amount is part of that.
In spite of your Discovery viewing, seahorses OFTEN live in extremely high flow areas.
Most long term successful keepers have flows well above the 10X and mostly near or exceeding the 20X mark.
We ALSO find that many of our seahorses, deliberately swim into the output flow of powerheads and returns, only to return and do it again, much like kids going down a slide.
It really amazes me that SO MANY people post information that they think is fact, without having the benefit of actual experience of keeping seahorses long term for themselves, or worse yet, never.

 

[Llyod276]

Wheres revtree at? @revhtree YOU NEED TO PROMOTE THIS GUY @rayjay to seahorse master. This is nineteen years of experience were ignoring. This needs to change let him join the ranks of vetteguy and jay hemdal.

This is good to hear. I'm glad you've shattered my faith, now I can have my seahorse!!! You've made an 8yo girl very happy!

We have much to discuss. PM me please.

Also the international seahorse racing commitee is cracking down on doping this year post Corona. I hear you won the Florida derby, Redsea stakes and the Fiji downs! Congrats!!! But they are gonna mess you up when they find out you've been doping your horses with reef roids.

But yeah we need to talk.

 

[Seabiscuit]

IME 10x flow is at the low end. My seahorses spend a part of their day right in front of my powerheads. They enjoy bobbing back and forth up to several minutes at a time by the current from the powerheads. My flow is around 11x but I'd like to go up a smidge. I have 2 filters and 3 powerheads but would like to add a small powerhead to cover a section of my aquarium that is not getting proper flow for my macroalgae.

 

[Seabiscuit]

Looking for some clear advice on determining flow in a peaceful tank with h. Erectus some softies and other fish.

Is the goal of 20%-25% flow strictly what goes thru the sump or does some of that flow get proportioned to the power heads?

If that is strictly bio turnover what should I be considering for tank circulation?

In your tank with the seahorses, add up your gph from all filters and powerheads and add in the flow coming from you sump. The sump flow will be a guess-timate since whatever filters/powerheads output will run through the sump first.

 

[rayjay]

I'm sorry but I won't be doing a PM.
Rather than my spending a lot of time in a dialogue that can only impart MY experiences and opinions, PLEASE avail yourself of the information I mentioned in post #4 above as in those sources you can have WIDE variety of opinions on seahorse keeping.
Seahorse keeping can be successful in quite a wide variety of ways so those wanting the experience should see how the majority of long term successful keepers manage it and then decide for themselves just what would suit their own situation best.
NO ONE KEEPER'S method is best, but there may be one keeper who's method suits YOUR particular situation best.

 

[Llyod276]

This message is not available

 

[Weasel1960]

IGNORE ANY POSTINGS THAT ADVISE OF "MINIMAL" or "LOW FLOW" for seahorse tanks. That advice is so ancient that it was on the way out when I started back in 2002.
Most of my seahorse tanks have been in the 20X range, with intent to keep detritus in suspension longer in order to get picked up by the mechanical filtration. The main consideration is to be sure there are no direct blasts to blow a seahorse against something and damage it. Arrange best you can to maximize detritus retrieval. There are always going to be varying degrees of flow in areas of the tank and be sure there is hitching available suitable for the seahorses to choose if they prefer at any time, high, medium or low flow. Personally I'd NEVER go below 10X but 20X or more works much better. Reactors are NOT a must.
I see many times people saying gas exchange is better in the skimmers. In fact, proper surface area with good motion works much better.
Skimmers produce tiny bubbles with great surface area but do far less for gas exchange because IF the skimmer is dialed in right, the bubbles QUICKLY become coated with the dissolved organics they are designed for and this block any gas exchange. The output flow of the skimmer will likely do more for exchange than the bubbles as the outlet flow will promote some surface agitation.
Skimmers are really almost necessary just for the benefit of removing dissolved organics that so often lead to the demise of our seahorses because there are NO test kits available to the hobbyist to be able to tell us when it is happening, and all other tests we may have show excellent.


NOW, if one REALLY wants to investigate the seahorse keeping hobby, there are countless posts in the stickies at the top of this forum where you can get started. You can also search out the youtube videos from Wine Wednesday with the Whisperer.
For more direct reading with less misleading information than posts, go to Facebook groups like Seahorse Source's Group and click on "FILES" for extensive information on most fields of the hobby. Other groups like Seahorses - Help and Advice, and Seahorse keeping made fun, go to the "MORE" link and then click on "FILES".

For starters I am only reviewing one thread at a time.

Thanks @rayjay I have read thru the posts and other sources mentioned - except not a Facebook person. I am fully aware that there is a need for higher flow, hence my question. What I am trying to do is dial in my equipment choices. I know I will be running 2 return pumps, one for direct return and one for UV and carbon/GFO. So is the 20X just the return system itself?

I am also looking int over sizing the skimmer without breaking the bank. Based on sumps I have looked at there is no physical way that all water goes thru the skimmer before it gets to the return tank...right?

Appreciate the advice, thanks.

 

[Weasel1960]

Dude rayjay, what are you recommending this guy to turn his seahorse farm into Cape Horn? 20x turnover? Please.
Maybe turn on the discovery channel and see a seahorse habitat. If your weeds(macro) is sideways then what's the poor bugger got to grab onto?
Golly think of the noise alone! Large amounts of moving water are never quiet.
Secondly ever heard of a gravel vaccum? Bye bye detritus, I mean gotta do a water change any way...

As for outdated check this, the earth IS flat. And Pluto is still a planet. King Arthur will come and save Britain from Brexit.

@Llyod276 , I appreciate your input but it is in fact contradictory to much of the research I have been doing already. Most of which comes from reputable Seahorse farms.

Please stop hijacking the thread by arguing with the input of others, it’s counterproductive. Thank you.

 

[Weasel1960]

In your tank with the seahorses, add up your gph from all filters and powerheads and add in the flow coming from you sump. The sump flow will be a guess-timate since whatever filters/powerheads output will run through the sump first.

 

[Llyod276]

You got it buddy

 

[rayjay]

Oversizing the skimmer is a GREAT move, especially if you can get one that is at least 3-4 times system volume.
Skimmers won't put all the water through before being returned to the tank but they don't need to in order to remove the dissolved organics. Eventually, all the water will have passed through but it's of no concern that way because one it has passed through and returns to the system, that "cleaned" water is immediately being "dirtied" again as dissolved organic production is a constant action. The thing is to keep getting it removed.
The 20X flow isn't a specification of any sort, it's more of how much many of us have found it takes to accomplish the water movement we need in the system and it's not an exact thing. Some of my tanks were set up with about 15-17X flow and some exceeded the 20X by 2-3 points.
My abdominalis tank is 90g with a 40g sump that only holds about 19-20g with all the live rock in it and in the sump I have a return pump rated 900g/hr but is less due to head pressure, and in the tank I have 5 powerheads rated each at 400g/hr plus one smaller one that I don't know the flow of. In addition I have 5 open ended airlines.
The theoretical multiple of flow without taking into account the return pump head flow exceeds 26X using 90+20+110g salt water total in the system.
I personally have NEVER used UV on any of my tanks, be they reef, fish only or any of the seahorse tanks.
In a seahorse tank, my main concern is bacteria and as almost all the bacteria that negatively affect the seahorses are benthic rather than pelagic, they remain on surfaces and don't go through the UV.
Some people feel it helps though for other problems like algae but I prefer to work out my food input and try to balance the removal methods so I don't get any serious algae problems. What goes in must come out.
I've never used a clean up crew. If you think about it, the nutrients in the food are PARTIALLY consumed by the seahorses who eat some of what is added but then, their waste enters the water column with a lot of nutrient due to the inefficiencies of their digestive tracts. Now a clean up crew will feed on the waste material AND the uneaten food but THEY TOO produce their waste which again contains so much nutrient that in it's turn is fed upon by the micro life of various sizes in the system. They TOO produce waste. However, by the time it's passed by the clean up crew stage it's already in a decomposed state to the point the dissolved organic load is rising seriously.
For me, I MUCH prefer to try and remove as much as possible of any nutrient before this happens because while I know it is happening, I have NO way to know how much and how fast it is happening.
So, while this works for me, many people are successful using other methods so it's just a case of doing whatever it takes for the particular system you have.
Sorry for the length, but I'm old and have never learned brevity.

 

[Weasel1960]

This is where I get a bit confused. The flow thru the sump can only equal what the return pump(s) can put back into the tank provided the overflow box can handle that flow of course, if The box is too small I would assume it acts like a dam, right. Meanwhile any power heads in the tank is just circulating water but should be considered as flow also?

So if my tank is 120g, 20x=2400gph. I could then have a pump that does 1000 for return, a pump that does 500 for UV/carbon, and the remaining 900 or more could be power heads. And my outlet box must handle a minimum of 1500 gal.?

 

[rayjay]

Tami Weiss was a GREAT person in the hobby and she put a TON of work into a website that helped countless numbers of people. Unfortunately, she was unable to keep the site up.
The GOOD news is that most of the site can be reached through web archive although response time can be a bit slow.
IMO it is REALLY worth checking it out.

Dive Into The World Of Seahorses, Pipefish & Seadragons | FusedJaw

Fused Jaw describes the shape of the mouths of a unique group of fish called the Syngnathiformes. Most famous among the group is the Seahorse. Pipefish and

web.archive.org

 

[Weasel1960]

Oversizing the skimmer is a GREAT move, especially if you can get one that is at least 3-4 times system volume.
Skimmers won't put all the water through before being returned to the tank but they don't need to in order to remove the dissolved organics. Eventually, all the water will have passed through but it's of no concern that way because one it has passed through and returns to the system, that "cleaned" water is immediately being "dirtied" again as dissolved organic production is a constant action. The thing is to keep getting it removed.
The 20X flow isn't a specification of any sort, it's more of how much many of us have found it takes to accomplish the water movement we need in the system and it's not an exact thing. Some of my tanks were set up with about 15-17X flow and some exceeded the 20X by 2-3 points.
My abdominalis tank is 90g with a 40g sump that only holds about 19-20g with all the live rock in it and in the sump I have a return pump rated 900g/hr but is less due to head pressure, and in the tank I have 5 powerheads rated each at 400g/hr plus one smaller one that I don't know the flow of. In addition I have 5 open ended airlines.
The theoretical multiple of flow without taking into account the return pump head flow exceeds 26X using 90+20+110g salt water total in the system.
I personally have NEVER used UV on any of my tanks, be they reef, fish only or any of the seahorse tanks.
In a seahorse tank, my main concern is bacteria and as almost all the bacteria that negatively affect the seahorses are benthic rather than pelagic, they remain on surfaces and don't go through the UV.
Some people feel it helps though for other problems like algae but I prefer to work out my food input and try to balance the removal methods so I don't get any serious algae problems. What goes in must come out.
I've never used a clean up crew. If you think about it, the nutrients in the food are PARTIALLY consumed by the seahorses who eat some of what is added but then, their waste enters the water column with a lot of nutrient due to the inefficiencies of their digestive tracts. Now a clean up crew will feed on the waste material AND the uneaten food but THEY TOO produce their waste which again contains so much nutrient that in it's turn is fed upon by the micro life of various sizes in the system. They TOO produce waste. However, by the time it's passed by the clean up crew stage it's already in a decomposed state to the point the dissolved organic load is rising seriously.
For me, I MUCH prefer to try and remove as much as possible of any nutrient before this happens because while I know it is happening, I have NO way to know how much and how fast it is happening.
So, while this works for me, many people are successful using other methods so it's just a case of doing whatever it takes for the particular system you have.
Sorry for the length, but I'm old and have never learned brevity.

Me either would much rather cover the bases than leave something out. I appreciate the info. My struggle will be the skimmer and the tank stand inside height. Was hoping to keep the tank bottom at 36” off floor but inside cabinet is going to be tight taking the cup off as the skimmer gets larger. Hence all my pr planning, I too am getting old and don’t deal with “do overs” very well.

 

[rayjay]

This is where I get a bit confused. The flow thru the sump can only equal what the return pump(s) can put back into the tank provided the overflow box can handle that flow of course, if The box is too small I would assume it acts like a dam, right. Meanwhile any power heads in the tank is just circulating water but should be considered as flow also?

So if my tank is 120g, 20x=2400gph. I could then have a pump that does 1000 for return, a pump that does 500 for UV/carbon, and the remaining 900 or more could be power heads. And my outlet box must handle a minimum of 1500 gal.?

I guess it's a personal choice as to how you break down the divisions with some people preferring somewhat less through the sump and more directly in the tank, but as I see it it's not a big thing whichever way one want's to go.
In fact, you don't even NEED the returns of the skimmer, UV/carbon to return to the tank as I think many just exhaust to the sump further along.
In any case your overflow won't have to deal with any of your proposed 900 which may be different once you set up and find what is needed.
Some tanks have holes drilled to have water removed from the tank at one point and returned in another or other multiples. There is a name for it but it eludes my defective memory.