seeding brand new deep sand bed that has dry rock

[petemichelle]

I am starting a 150 gal tank. I am doing a deep sand bed, and I am using all dry rock so as not to get any hitchhikers. This is my first deep sand bed and my understanding of it is that it will turn the nitrates into gases that will release, and hence less water changes if any at all. I also understand that this process relays on the life in the deep sand bed ie, worms, cope pods, amphi pods, etc.

my question is that since I am using dry rock and not live rock and since the dry rock (aquamaxx dry rock from marine depot) is dug out of the land so it does not need to be cured, how can I get the worms, cope pods etc into the deep sand bed. I will be using Oceans brand Live sand. but I thought that "Live Sand" just means it has bacteria, not the life I was talking about.

I did not want to add a piece of live rock in there, that would defeat the whole purpose of using the dry rock and keeping out unwanted hitchhikers.

any suggestions. my rock is on the way and I'm ready to go but want to do this right. and not end up with a black dead sand bed. has anybody been down this road??

 

[KSzegi]

Having set up a dsb several times in a couple different ways .... I would always go with at least 20% of "true" live sand, preferably more if you are using dry rock. However, if you really don't want to use any live sand or live rock - then I would look into buying a starter/detrivore kit and some other miscellaneous critters from someplace like Indo-Pacific Sea Farms or Inland Aquatics.

 

[Mike J.]

Every time I have used CaribSea Arag Alive I've had clams hatch and there certainly isn't a lack of other critters. So, no, it's not just bacteria.

 

[petemichelle]

Having set up a dsb several times in a couple different ways .... I would always go with at least 20% of "true" live sand, preferably more if you are using dry rock. However, if you really don't want to use any live sand or live rock - then I would look into buying a starter/detrivore kit and some other miscellaneous critters from someplace like Indo-Pacific Sea Farms or Inland Aquatics.

I understand. i guess I have to get the worms, pods, brittle stars, and other animals that live in actual "Live Sand" from some kind of seeding kit that i see online. One question though, its' about the throwing in a raw shrimp since I won't be using live rock and using the die off as the ammonia source, I understand that chopping up the raw shrimp and putting it into the tank, the decay process will produce the ammonia that will start the cycling process. And that the process could be 4 to 8 weeks from start to finish. by the end of 8 weeks or however long the cycle takes to finish, all of the raw shrimp will have decayed and there won't be anymore decaying source to produce ammonia, hence shouldn't the bacteria start to shrink? in that case should I be continually adding more shrimp, or food in to keep that cycle going and not let it shrink due to no more ammonia source. it that's true, at what rate should I be adding shrimp or food at? I appreciate the help, the rock will be here tomorrow and I have some decisions to make so as not to go down the wrong road. going with a 150 gal tank plus 50 or so gal for the sump, and 4 inches of sand for both would make for a pretty big mistake if I had to take it all out because I blew setting up the tank in the beginning.

one more question and it's about the aquascaping of the dry rock. I have always put the sand in, a 1/4 of the water and then set the rock up onto of the sand and then filled the rest of the water. I've been told on this forum that I should set the rock up on the glass and then put the sand in around the rock, or put the rock up on some substrate and then pour the sand around it. Why??? what's the difference?? is it just for stability?? I would have thought that whatever life there was living on the rock that gets surrounded by the sand will die off causing hydrogen sulfide since nothing can get in or out of that depth..

 

[Mike J.]

The cycle kind of goes like this chart when using a shrimp to produce ammonia. Yes, if there is no more food source the beneficial bacteria will die off. You will only have enough bacteria (or close to) what needs to be in there to consume the available ammonia. When your nitrates get to zero is when you put in a clean up crew. Then you add fish a couple weeks apart to let the bacteria adjust to each new ammonia producer.

 

[CastAway]

Critters will burrow under rock that's just sitting on the sand, and the rock will move and/or tumble. Much more stable to place rock on glass first. After your cycle, and after your first tank inhabitants start to create enough detritus, you can add detrivore kit(s). The detrivores will live off bacteria, detritus and each other. It's been suggested to buy or obtain detrivore from multiple sources, so as to get the best diversity. Should not add too early IMO, because there will not be enough to eat.

 

[Mike J.]

Here's a very good article about cycling an aquarium.

The Mature Aquarium

 

[petemichelle]

The cycle kind of goes like this chart when using a shrimp to produce ammonia. Yes, if there is no more food source the beneficial bacteria will die off. You will only have enough bacteria (or close to) what needs to be in there to consume the available ammonia. When your nitrates get to zero is when you put in a clean up crew. Then you add fish a couple weeks apart to let the bacteria adjust to each new ammonia producer.

so according to the chart the ammonia goes to zero at day 15, but I shouldn't add any fish or critters until the nitrite cycle reaches zero at day 27. that's almost 2 weeks that nothing is producing ammonia and feed the beneficial bacteria that turns ammonia into nitrites. So, that bacteria will start to die off. shouldn't I be adding a steady supply of shrimp or food into the water column so that the bacteria has a steady food source, and then when the nitrites reaches zero, stop putting in cut up shrimp or flake food, and put in a hardy fish, or clean up crew which then will produce the ammonia from their excrements...???

 

[petemichelle]

Critters will burrow under rock that's just sitting on the sand, and the rock will move and/or tumble. Much more stable to place rock on glass first. After your cycle, and after your first tank inhabitants start to create enough detritus, you can add detrivore kit(s). The detrivores will live off bacteria, detritus and each other. It's been suggested to buy or obtain detrivore from multiple sources, so as to get the best diversity. Should not add too early IMO, because there will not be enough to eat.

I totally understand the "obtaining detrivore from multiple sources, so as to get the best diversity." None of the local fish stores have a deep sand bed which I can beg or buy, a cup of sand. I am in El Cerrito, Berkely, San Francisco, bay area. is there any other hobbits in the area that might have a Deep Sand Bed that I can beg, buy, or trade for a couple of cups of sand?

 

[The Flying Turkey]

I totally understand the "obtaining detrivore from multiple sources, so as to get the best diversity." None of the local fish stores have a deep sand bed which I can beg or buy, a cup of sand. I am in El Cerrito, Berkely, San Francisco, bay area. is there any other hobbits in the area that might have a Deep Sand Bed that I can beg, buy, or trade for a couple of cups of sand?

Just curious, what did you end up doing?

 

[Bry]

so according to the chart the ammonia goes to zero at day 15, but I shouldn't add any fish or critters until the nitrite cycle reaches zero at day 27. that's almost 2 weeks that nothing is producing ammonia and feed the beneficial bacteria that turns ammonia into nitrites. So, that bacteria will start to die off. shouldn't I be adding a steady supply of shrimp or food into the water column so that the bacteria has a steady food source, and then when the nitrites reaches zero, stop putting in cut up shrimp or flake food, and put in a hardy fish, or clean up crew which then will produce the ammonia from their excrements...???

Not necessarily... 0 Ammonia just means you now have enough bacteria working to convert it as it is being produced. It depends on how much shrimp you put in initially and if there is any still in the tank.

 

[petemichelle]

so according to the chart the ammonia goes to zero at day 15, but I shouldn't add any fish or critters until the nitrite cycle reaches zero at day 27. that's almost 2 weeks that nothing is producing ammonia and feed the beneficial bacteria that turns ammonia into nitrites. So, that bacteria will start to die off. shouldn't I be adding a steady supply of shrimp or food into the water column so that the bacteria has a steady food source, and then when the nitrites reaches zero, stop putting in cut up shrimp or flake food, and put in a hardy fish, or clean up crew which then will produce the ammonia from their excrements...???[/

Having set up a dsb several times in a couple different ways .... I would always go with at least 20% of "true" live sand, preferably more if you are using dry rock. However, if you really don't want to use any live sand or live rock - then I would look into buying a starter/detrivore kit and some other miscellaneous critters from someplace like Indo-Pacific Sea Farms or Inland Aquatics.

Okay just put in 150 lbs of dry rock and 4 inches of oceans direct live sand "number 0, sugar fine" in my brand new tank. I will order a starter/detrivore kit from inland aquatics just like you guys suggested. I do have a real big concern that just came up. I have a 29 gal bio cube which used to have worms and cop epodes and amphipods because I started it with real live rock. Then one day I realized they were all gone. Seems the 6 line wrasse I put in ate them all. Boo hoo. I obviously will not be putting any wrasse's in my new tank and will probably get rid of the one in my bio cube. Since the pods and worms are an integral part of the deep sand bed I am concerned that other fishes that I introduce may also eat them. Currently I hane a percula clown, a green chromis, a fire goby, and a hippo tang in my cube. Will any of these fish feed on the worms and pods? The clown in perticular, I keep getting different opinions but when asked directly nobody who has made a comment has ever had a deep sand bed or has direct experience. Just a he said, she said, they read somewhere...

Anybody with direct experience? I was hoping Kszegi, since you said you have set up several deep sand beds. This is my first deep sand bed and my second salt water tank, so I,m really looking to you guys with the experience so I don,t fall on my face.

 

[KSzegi]

I don't see any of the fish you listed as a problem. I have had all of the fish you listed in a dsb without a problem. They may snatch a few here and there but they won't continually hunt them down. With a 150, once you have gotten your sand bed well established and matured then it would probably be safe to add a fish that tends to eat more pods and worms if you wanted. Starting with dry rock and sand - I would give yourself 6-12 months for the development of a truly active live sand bed.

 

[petemichelle]

Just curious, what did you end up doing?

nothing yet. the tank is in it's third week of cycling. just holding my breath. nobody has stepped up and offered a cup of sand in my area so....

 

[petemichelle]

I don't see any of the fish you listed as a problem. I have had all of the fish you listed in a dsb without a problem. They may snatch a few here and there but they won't continually hunt them down. With a 150, once you have gotten your sand bed well established and matured then it would probably be safe to add a fish that tends to eat more pods and worms if you wanted. Starting with dry rock and sand - I would give yourself 6-12 months for the development of a truly active live sand bed.

the tank is in it's 3rd week of cycling. I was wondering, how long before I start seeing bubbles in my deep sand bed, you know through the front glass?

 

[KSzegi]

the tank is in it's 3rd week of cycling. I was wondering, how long before I start seeing bubbles in my deep sand bed, you know through the front glass?

I would say 3-6 months ..... depends on what other live rock and/or sand you were able to add with it.

 

[petemichelle]

Having set up a dsb several times in a couple different ways .... I would always go with at least 20% of "true" live sand, preferably more if you are using dry rock. However, if you really don't want to use any live sand or live rock - then I would look into buying a starter/detrivore kit and some other miscellaneous critters from someplace like Indo-Pacific Sea Farms or Inland Aquatics.

so my tank is finished cycling. the ammonia, and nitrites are at 0, and I have kept and still have a raw shrimp in a mesh bag that's floating by the return line into the display tank. I will be doing a 40% water change in a couple of days. Do you think 40% is too much? I don't want to kick off another cycle because I swapped out too much water. I have not had my lights on during this period. so I have not had any algae bloom or diatoms yet. I will switch them on after the water change. I have also made a large order from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms as you suggested. I ordered the worms, the wonder mud, the sand activator kit, ands the amphi pod kit. since I have no algae or diatoms in my tank, what should I be feeding them to have them not only sustain themselves but multiple and seed the sand before I add fish. they only give you like 6 worms each and 25 pods per order. I'd hate to have them eaten by a fish before they have a chance to multiple and seed. they were pretty expensive for the number of critters you actually get. will fish food be good enough? I am currently ghost feeding every night a pinch of flake food, just to add to the bio load. They mention giving you a "pod mat" that you can add if you have them in a refugium. I'm not sure if I should add that to my display tank during this period to give them something to feed on. will it take off and cause an algae bloom in my display or give me the blues trying to remove it later? How long should I leave them alone before I get or see a pod explosion and safely add fish without fear of them getting wiped out. since you seem to have experience, I really am looking to you for solid advice. also, I will be putting pods and worms in my refugium, should I be putting some of the snails or hermit crabs in the refugium as well?

 

[KSzegi]

so my tank is finished cycling. the ammonia, and nitrites are at 0, and I have kept and still have a raw shrimp in a mesh bag that's floating by the return line into the display tank.
I will be doing a 40% water change in a couple of days. Do you think 40% is too much? I don't want to kick off another cycle because I swapped out too much water.

What are your nitrates testing? A large water change should not kick off another cycle - all of your bacteria will be in the rocks and sand - I may even do more depending on what nitrates are.

I have not had my lights on during this period. so I have not had any algae bloom or diatoms yet. I will switch them on after the water change. I have also made a large order from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms as you suggested. I ordered the worms, the wonder mud, the sand activator kit, ands the amphi pod kit. since I have no algae or diatoms in my tank, what should I be feeding them to have them not only sustain themselves but multiple and seed the sand before I add fish. they only give you like 6 worms each and 25 pods per order. I'd hate to have them eaten by a fish before they have a chance to multiple and seed. they were pretty expensive for the number of critters you actually get. will fish food be good enough? I am currently ghost feeding every night a pinch of flake food, just to add to the bio load.

Fish food will be fine. Once you put your lights on there will be microalgae for them to eat also - watch that you don't overdo the feeding either! Kind of a catch 22 ..... the population of critters will be directly proportionate to the amount of food available ..... but walking a fine line since the same food they like will also promote algae that you don't like!! So - be prepared to keep up with your export!!


They mention giving you a "pod mat" that you can add if you have them in a refugium. I'm not sure if I should add that to my display tank during this period to give them something to feed on. will it take off and cause an algae bloom in my display or give me the blues trying to remove it later? How long should I leave them alone before I get or see a pod explosion and safely add fish without fear of them getting wiped out. since you seem to have experience, I really am looking to you for solid advice. also, I will be putting pods and worms in my refugium, should I be putting some of the snails or hermit crabs in the refugium as well?

Looks like their "pod mat" is some ulva macroalgae ....probably won't flourish in your fuge - takes some pretty good light and flow. If you want to put it in your DT - I wouldn't worry about it becoming a problem if you are going to have any tang or other algae grazer - they love it and it will be gone quickly. If you want a good algae for them in the fuge - I would get some chaeto - I think it is the best.

As for snails and hermits - yes, I would put a few snails in the fuge but would would avoid hermits. They are opportunistic and will kill snails and pods if given a chance. Personally I don't keep any hermits at all anymore.

Didn't realize the amount of pods was so minimal from IPSF - you may really want to consider adding an order from reefcleaners and/or getyourpods too ..... start with a little more substantial population and really give yourself a fighting chance. Within a couple weeks you should see a pretty good 'explosion' of population - and if you have the patience to wait, a couple months would be best. :biggrin1: