self feeding

sharks11

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I have a 125 gal tank with 3 triggers and 1 clown. Since the bio load is so low, it means feeding requirements are relatively low. I kind of want to try a self feeding tank. My idea with this is that I have a small fish/invert that breeds relatively quickly. Between a high denisty of live rock and my sump, they can escape from the triggers and keep reproducing. At a rate that relatively matches consumption.

Does anyone have any recommendations on what fish/invert to use? I was looking into guppies but that does not seem to be the most nutrional for the triggers. Maybe a mix of fiddler crabs and brine shrimp?

I haven't seen many threads on this so any and all help would be greatly appreciated!
 
I think you would need a huge refugium tank that pumps into the main one for this to work. Even with a tank that big I don't think you could support the triggers on little amphipods and mysids. The others are not going to survive long enough or reproduce enough to support the triggers. Clowns, damsels, other planktivores certainly could survive on just the normal populations of copepods in the tank but certainly not triggers.
 
You’d need a much larger container than 125g. Looking for an entire ecosystem where nature feeds everything and likely just the one predator. Easier to just get an automatic feeder with appropriate pellets.
 
I have a 125 gal tank with 3 triggers and 1 clown. Since the bio load is so low, it means feeding requirements are relatively low. I kind of want to try a self feeding tank. My idea with this is that I have a small fish/invert that breeds relatively quickly. Between a high denisty of live rock and my sump, they can escape from the triggers and keep reproducing. At a rate that relatively matches consumption.

Does anyone have any recommendations on what fish/invert to use? I was looking into guppies but that does not seem to be the most nutrional for the triggers. Maybe a mix of fiddler crabs and brine shrimp?

I haven't seen many threads on this so any and all help would be greatly appreciated!
This is an interesting thought. I have to say - I feed my fish once a day (or even every other day) - the rest of the day - they eat whats on the live rock. So - compared to some of the people that feed 4-6 times/day, I have a partially self-feeding system.

Having said that I have 3 tangs (2 yellow and a purple), a harlequin tusk (who has helped himself to the entire clean up crew) a filefish and a clown.

They all love to be fed - and I tend to feed a fair bit at one time. On rare occasions I will also put in some flake food at a different time. In any case - though this sounds like heresy, I do not feed my corals (but the actively eat when I scrape off the glass or feed the fish).

As to feeding live fish to triggers - I agree with the rest - thats going to be difficult in all likelihood. (especially keeping them growing within the system). It is also possible for guppies to live in saltwater - even high salinity (I believe it 1.5x normal seawater) - and disease is an issue. But - it would seem like in order to have a population large enough for the triggers - you would have 1000 guppies swimming in the tank (which might not look that great). Then comes the issue that the guppies, etc - are also going to need to be fed - until they are eaten - etc. I dont want to rain on your parade - its a very interesting question/thread.

I have to say I'm picturing the scenario - I don't want to feed my cats so I'm going to let mice run all around in the basement. :). Or dogs/Rabbits. Note this is a facetious comment.
 
You’d need a much larger container than 125g. Looking for an entire ecosystem where nature feeds everything and likely just the one predator. Easier to just get an automatic feeder with appropriate pellets.
I have to agree with Garriga here, for bigger, predator fish like triggers, you’d probably need something substantially larger than 125 gallons - particularly if you want to ensure that they are getting a properly balanced diet (remember, what their food eats impacts its nutritional profile, and that impacts the top predator’s health too, so you would need to offer a good, varied diet to anything the triggers might eat).

That said, however, my recommendations for feeders would probably be salt water ghost shrimp (I’ve also seen these called Grass Shrimp and Marsh Shrimp), fiddler crabs, sand fleas, etc. for the crustacean side of things (at least one or more of the better options for this - several of which I haven’t listed - would be incredibly difficult to get to work in a traditional aquarium setup), and (if you can get any and manage to keep them alive and successfully reproducing in your tank) something like bay or buccaneer anchovies, dwarf herring, or some other (preferably multiple other) really small, marine, schooling fish. Some gobies or other small, shoaling fish could potentially work too (and I would recommend them), but, again, you’d need probably several dozen actively breeding (and successfully reproducing) at the least, and that’s really just not super feasible in anything short of an absolutely massive tank.
*As a note here, most fish species that could work really well for this are noted for not handling the transition from ocean to aquaria very well, and they generally are more “bland” colors (basically just silver), so they are both difficult to find and difficult to keep.*

It’s an interesting subject, and one that I admit I am looking into the feasibility of, but the sheer size and scope of what all is needed to make it work in a (almost entirely) closed system is daunting, and even after figuring out exactly what all would be needed to make it work, you would still need to figure out the proper proportions for each step of the food chain (i.e. something like I need X amount of gobies to feed Y amount of bass), and then you would likely need to remove the apex predators on occasion too (and this all only works if everything in the tank is breeding successfully and regularly, which would be difficult to ensure since many animals won’t mate under stressful conditions like being in a tank full of predators).

Anyway, great question with the unfortunate answer of “not in a tank that size.”
 
Pond management might help. They figured out how many pounds of feeder fish for pounds of predator based on size of pond and vegetation available along with micro fauna to sustain the feed.
 
Pond management might help. They figured out how many pounds of feeder fish for pounds of predator based on size of pond and vegetation available along with micro fauna to sustain the feed.
Isn't the issue - that he wants to keep (my understanding) - the 'food' in the tank itself - as compared to keeping the 'food' separately? When I owned 2 large cichlids - if I added 3 goldfish or 30 goldfish to the tank - within minutes to an hour all were 'gone' and if not fully eaten 'dead'. PS - I know feeder fish are not good nutrition (balanced) anyway.
 
Isn't the issue - that he wants to keep (my understanding) - the 'food' in the tank itself - as compared to keeping the 'food' separately? When I owned 2 large cichlids - if I added 3 goldfish or 30 goldfish to the tank - within minutes to an hour all were 'gone' and if not fully eaten 'dead'. PS - I know feeder fish are not good nutrition (balanced) anyway.
Yes. One environment contains all. Pond management operates on the same basis. Food has to reproduce faster than consumed yet also need to eat. An ecological system needs lots of room
 
Thank you everyone for your quick replies. From the gist, I am getting that the tank is too small to support this many predators and even if I had only one small trigger per say, breeding would be too difficult and there would not be enough nutrients for the fish in the live food to be adequetly happy.

Pond management might help. They figured out how many pounds of feeder fish for pounds of predator based on size of pond and vegetation available along with micro fauna to sustain the feed.

This is an interesitng thought that I will look more into. Maybe there are other ideas in there that I can utilize in salt water.

I am also getting the impression that if I wanted to do live food that I would be better off breeding (if I can get the conditions right) in my sump. Do you think I could breed in a large sump and bring up x amount of live fish when needed? Feed them pellet mysis so they still have high nutritional value?
 
Thank you everyone for your quick replies. From the gist, I am getting that the tank is too small to support this many predators and even if I had only one small trigger per say, breeding would be too difficult and there would not be enough nutrients for the fish in the live food to be adequetly happy.



This is an interesitng thought that I will look more into. Maybe there are other ideas in there that I can utilize in salt water.

I am also getting the impression that if I wanted to do live food that I would be better off breeding (if I can get the conditions right) in my sump. Do you think I could breed in a large sump and bring up x amount of live fish when needed? Feed them pellet mysis so they still have high nutritional value?
I don't know if you could breed enough guppies in the sump to feed any predator fish. Depends on the size of sump but I doubt it.
 
It’s an interesting subject, and one that I admit I am looking into the feasibility of, but the sheer size and scope of what all is needed to make it work in a (almost entirely) closed system is daunting, and even after figuring out exactly what all would be needed to make it work, you would still need to figure out the proper proportions for each step of the food chain (i.e. something like I need X amount of gobies to feed Y amount of bass), and then you would likely need to remove the apex predators on occasion too (and this all only works if everything in the tank is breeding successfully and regularly, which would be difficult to ensure since many animals won’t mate under stressful conditions like being in a tank full of predators).
I've thought about this as well since it seems like an interesting way to build a reef. As an order of magnitude estimate: I've read that it takes 70 pounds of live rock to have a sustainable population of pods for a single mandarin. Assuming you had a breeding pair you could get a hatch per month but would probably only get one fry to make it to edible size for a top predator without special assistance. Assuming that predator eats one fish a day you would need 30 breeding pairs to feed it and then 4,200 pounds of live rock to keep them fed. Which is probably a rough estimate for tank volume.

I'm not sure how many predators would successfully eat every day so maybe you could cut that number in half but I'm also not sure that consistent monthly hatches or a single survivor either. It seems reasonable though that a 100 to 200 sqft (assuming 3 ft water depth) of reef could support a single apex predator.
 
I don't know if you could breed enough guppies in the sump to feed any predator fish. Depends on the size of sump but I doubt it.
Yeah, again, technically it’s possible, but you’re probably going to need a sump the size of a small pond (or not so small, depending). Assuming you don’t have several thousand dollars to spend on a possibly big enough tank, and assuming you’re really determined to try this, you could probably jimmy-rig an old, large hot tub or chest freezer or something into a large, functional sump (it would be ugly, expensive to heat/maintain, and only viewable from above, but I have heard of people successfully keeping fish in similar setups) and you could attempt to breed the food in that, but its usefulness would really depend on how determined you are to grow the feeders yourself and on how successful you are in the breeding of them. Either way, the sump would probably need to be just about bursting at the seams to be able to provide a steady supply of feeders/enough feeders to actually make up a majority of a decent sized predator’s diet.

For the nutrition, I’m not an expert, but, as I understand it, the nutritional profile of freshwater fish is generally very different than that of marine fish, so even feeding the guppies on a highly nutritious diet may not be enough to have them be a nutritionally balanced diet for the predators. That’s why my suggestion above lists small marine fish and crustaceans.

With all of that said, however, you could grow out some live feeders (the marine ghost shrimp I mentioned are supposedly easy to keep in aquaria, easy to breed, and don’t have incredibly difficult to meet living requirements like some of the other good feeders do, so I’d probably recommend them) in a normal sump and use them on occasion as snacks/brain stimulation toys for the predators. It wouldn’t produce enough to feed them long term, but it would provide something on occasion.
 
Thank you everyone for your quick replies. From the gist, I am getting that the tank is too small to support this many predators and even if I had only one small trigger per say, breeding would be too difficult and there would not be enough nutrients for the fish in the live food to be adequetly happy.



This is an interesitng thought that I will look more into. Maybe there are other ideas in there that I can utilize in salt water.

I am also getting the impression that if I wanted to do live food that I would be better off breeding (if I can get the conditions right) in my sump. Do you think I could breed in a large sump and bring up x amount of live fish when needed? Feed them pellet mysis so they still have high nutritional value?
Separate breeding compartment would be best.

Below is an experiment I was running freshwater with plants, guppies and daphnia that was supposed to be transitioned to using Chaeto, mollies and pods in saltwater. Grass shrimp are another option that can be added. However, one would need a very large container to have enough mollies to breed and grow out their offsprings to a proper size.

What killed the experiment was a disease breakout which brought the realization that now I’d have to sustain another system and deal with the issues of keeping it safe and possibly having to start it again. Cheaper and more effective to feed pellets or obtain live foods from vendors such as RUSALTY. Just buy large quantities and place them in a separate container to allow sporadic feeding to supplement the pellets. Less hassle. Less mess

9E54943A-4C2C-4381-8DEA-C539D823701F.jpeg
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

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  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%

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